Knee-jerk reaction to a non-problem of speed

[xisled]

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...-1226492352854

YOU know if 80 per cent of people are disobeying a law, it's probably the law that needs fixing rather than the people. But in these illiberal times, we ramp up the punishment.
So when a Macquarie University study this month found that 70 to 80 per cent of drivers break the 40km/h speed limit when entering school zones, the usual call went up for more speed cameras and tougher fines.

This is the solution to every road safety issue from the robotic RTA now uselessly rebadged as Roads and Maritime Services.

But tomorrow a former RTA engineer will spill the beans on the failed logic and wasted money behind the state's War on Speed which has had negligible impact on safety, and may in fact provoke a psychological backlash among motorists.

Lex Stewart, RTA road safety manager between 1990 and 1997, will tell the Australian Institute of Traffic and Planning conference at Luna Park that better road safety comes from "flowing with" rather than going against "innate human psychology".

He says the number of road deaths has barely budged over the past decade as ever more drastic penalties have been enforced on motorists.

School speed zones are an example of a kneejerk reaction to a non problem that has diverted resources from more pressing safety issues. "All this huge money spent (on school zones) has had very small benefit because there never were any significant numbers of children killed or injured near schools in the first place," he said.

He counters the argument that any price is worth saving a life by saying that if money is diverted from programs that could save 50 lives, "all that we have achieved is to kill 49 people".

Five police highway patrol officers he interviewed for his paper complained that school zones were being "forced" on them and were difficult to enforce, diverting police attention away from more pressing issues such as bike helmets.

Stewart advocates scrapping all 40km/h school speed zones and instead employing more school crossing supervisors trained as special constables with the power to enforce 50 or

60km/h limits. "They can also talk to children, educating them in road safety, something that cameras cannot do."

He said Australian authorities were "unusually obsessed" with speeding, at the risk of underemphasising the dangers of drunk driving or driving without a seatbelt.

Speed cameras were "purely punitive, not educational" he said. "We need to ask those obsessed with speed cameras why Germany, with no speed limit at all on its autobahns, has a fatality rate of 0.7, which is substantially better than NSW's 0.9 and Australia's 0.8."

The NSW Auditor-General's report into speed cameras last year was a "damning indictment of RTA incompetence and arrogance". The report found 70 per cent of submissions viewed cameras as revenue raisers, and only 28 per cent of cameras produced statistically significant improvements in road safety."

"It is far more effective to use roving highway patrol officers."

When he was in charge of road safety in 90 per cent of the state west of Lithgow, Stewart wanted every motorist to see a blue flashing light on their travels.

He told police in his patch that if a driver is travelling at 112km/h in a 110 zone you pull him over, and "have a chat", about the inadvisability of breaking the speed limit, the hazards of fatigue and the whereabouts of the closest rest stop is. Then you send him on his way without a ticket.

This way the community is involved in taking responsibility for driving safely.

While politicians and bureaucrats "piously" rail against speeding, claiming it is the No.1 road safety problem, "there is little hard data to back them up", he said.

By contrast, the data on drink driving is accurate, since blood samples are taken from people involved in a crash, and tell us that alcohol is involved in 21 per cent of road deaths and 19 per cent of crashes.

Similarly, failure to wear a seatbelt (or a helmet) resulted in 12 per cent of deaths.

But the official line that "up to 40 per cent" of crashes are caused by excessive speed is a guess, Stewart said, based on insufficient scientific evidence, flawed data and inadequate police accident reports.

Stewart is all for bringing down speeds where appropriate, such as in residential areas where reducing the speed limit from 60 to 50km/h means less damage if a car hits a bike or pedestrian.

But the blanket assault on speed is absurd: "Why not make all speed limits 10km/h?"

Stewart is not just a critic. He has a lot of worthwhile solutions, including the introduction of a fairer "merit" scheme of 100 points, and speeding fines scaled more logically.

He advocates removing 90 per cent of speed cameras and putting the money into more highway patrol officers, encouraged to have frequent interactions with drivers in an educational/warning role.

One officer plus car costs about $200,000. If he books four people per shift then the fines reap the state $200,000. They are "close to being self-funding". he said. "Why the reluctance to employ more?"

He would also erect lots more speed limit "reassurance" signs so drivers know how fast they can go, increase driver education and require new cars to have black box recorders so the role of speed, fatigue and so on can be assessed.

Stewart's ideas, backed by his experience at the front line, are well worth heeding.

But Roads Minister Duncan Gay, who will open the conference this morning, did not respond to Stewart's offer to view his paper. Gay went into office a champion of motorists, opposed to punitive fines and cameras. But like every minister before him, he is now captured by his department and addicted to the revenue.

[blueoval]

But the official line that "up to 40 per cent" of crashes are caused by excessive speed is a guess, Stewart said, based on insufficient scientific evidence, flawed data and inadequate police accident reports.

Yet with this proof, the authorities involved are so deep in what profits cameras make vs police presence, that they care little about driver education, and human lives.

It has gone too far for too long now, and the powers that be are less interested in societies welfare anymore if it doesnt mean some form of cash in.

[joolz]

Also ive heard (From a very reliable source) that open speed limits will be reintroduced in the N.T in a few months due to the higher road toll. Speed wasnt the factor but fatigue!!
Will this show that speed doesnt kill in most cases and contradict what Victoria (and other states) have been ramming down our throats since radars and cameras were introduced...

[Trump]

Originally Posted by joolz

Also ive heard (From a very reliable source) that open speed limits will be reintroduced in the N.T in a few months due to the higher road toll. Speed wasnt the factor but fatigue!!
Will this show that speed doesnt kill in most cases and contradict what Victoria (and other states) have been ramming down our throats since radars and cameras were introduced...

If Govco in the NT reinstates the open speed limit, it would, one hope, set a precedent that the states would be hard pressed not to follow.

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by joolz

Also ive heard (From a very reliable source) that open speed limits will be reintroduced in the N.T in a few months due to the higher road toll. Speed wasnt the factor but fatigue!!
Will this show that speed doesnt kill in most cases and contradict what Victoria (and other states) have been ramming down our throats since radars and cameras were introduced...

More reliable sources here: http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11304971

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

If Govco in the NT reinstates the open speed limit, it would, one hope, set a precedent that the states would be hard pressed not to follow.

Dont bank on it, sadly. The roads here (the NT) are vastly different to most of Australia. Only the NT and a small part of SA and most of northern WA would be appropriate for a higher limit. NSW VIC and TAS have only ever built roads that would safely support 110kph. There is much more profit to be made that way.

[The G6ET Spot]

The Governments no matter which state will not raise speed limits or cut the number of speed cameras.

When It gets to the point that it is now that they actually budget (and increase each year) speed camera revenue we have gone past the point of no return.

they just rely on the revenue to much to try and balance budgets.

[Franco Cozzo]

It never was about safety, its about $$$.

Its cheaper to pretend to fix the problems, have a few dead people and sell lies rather than educate people.

The whole system needs an overhaul, from me to the governor general. Unfortunately it seems no one has anyone elses best interests in mind.

[mik]

interesting article, looks on the money for my 2 bobs worth, camera`s do zero for those that don`t speed(or don`t speed near camera`s) but still drive like ratbags,
and absolutely no incentive for the people that drive like erratic scum bags to change their behavior if they only have camera`s to police them.
it`s sorta funny to me that often the Authorities always say it`s speed that is the problem, ............. to me more often than not the speed that kills is the result of driving in a manner dangerous of which speed is the end result, and again more often than not the the guys cruising on a run 10/15 k`s over the limit on the highway in a smooth calm courteous manner is the one that
A. does`nt crash
B. gets pinged by a camera

it`s usually the as my step father would call them "the tearasses" that make a career out of erratic speeding that know where the camera`s are and rarely get booked until it`s too late, having officers pull people over give them some education and a warning and chance to change their behavior does`nt put many bikky`s in the states bank, so it continues .

[jpd80]

Politicians and law makers feel the need to do something, so the easiest solution is to make a law.

The much harder thing is to educate people to drive in a safe manner.

And for the record, who's damned planning idea was it to put nearly every friggin' school on a main thoroughfare?
Surly having schools on a quiet side street away from main roads would be much safer in the first place.

[JC]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Politicians and law makers feel the need to do something, so the easiest solution is to make a law.

The much harder thing is to educate people to drive in a safe manner.

And for the record, who's damned planning idea was it to put nearly every friggin' school on a main thoroughfare?
Surly having schools on a quiet side street away from main roads would be much safer in the first place.

Ironically, you may find that the roads schools are on used to be quiet side streets....until the school was built.

[Brazen]

Put more money into mental disease and depression. Suicide is a much bigger killer than road accidents.

[XARATE]

Speed cameras were "purely punitive, not educational" he said. "We need to ask those obsessed with speed cameras why Germany, with no speed limit at all on its autobahns, has a fatality rate of 0.7, which is substantially better than NSW's 0.9 and Australia's 0.8."

Needs to get his facts correct if he wants people to take his seriously. There are quite a few sections of the autobarn with speed limits and if you want to get technical the autobarn actually has a speed limit of 350kph

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by jpd80

And for the record, who's damned planning idea was it to put nearly every friggin' school on a main thoroughfare?
Surly having schools on a quiet side street away from main roads would be much safer in the first place.

This is a problem too. it wouldn't be cheaper, but they should change their pickup point. it would be safer than a sign and a flashing light. The worst one is Ando, which goes from 100 to 40 for about 100m. i'm so glad they are shut down this year.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by XARATE

Needs to get his facts correct if he wants people to take his seriously. There are quite a few sections of the autobarn with speed limits and if you want to get technical the autobarn actually has a speed limit of 350kph

I'll have to make sure I don't exceed that then...

[FGII-XR6]

yea right, most of our freeways are actually built for far higher speeds than they allow whats so special about NT roads

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Dont bank on it, sadly. The roads here (the NT) are vastly different to most of Australia. Only the NT and a small part of SA and most of northern WA would be appropriate for a higher limit. NSW VIC and TAS have only ever built roads that would safely support 110kph. There is much more profit to be made that way.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

yea right, most of our freeways are actually built for far higher speeds than they allow whats so special about NT roads

They tend to be much wider with nothing close to the sides of the roads. This is not true in all areas but is far more common than on the coast where the roads are narrower with trees and buildings just off the edges.

[FGII-XR6]

most NSW freeways are like that with nothing close to the edge of the road to hit and good wide roadways

Originally Posted by flappist

They tend to be much wider with nothing close to the sides of the roads. This is not true in all areas but is far more common than on the coast where the roads are narrower with trees and buildings just off the edges.

[2011G6E]

I always love the dramatic headlines that say on highway X over the weekend they booked "1500 speeding motorists" or something.

The interesting thing would be to find out how many accidents there were on that same stretch of road over the same time period.

If none or no more than usual, then shouldn't the limit be reviewed?That is what common sense would say anyhow...

However, speed limits always go down...they never go up. Around Bundabrg you used to be able to do 100kph down to all the beaches, but now it's 80kph after a couple of "shocking" accidents.
One was three drunk girls at 2am in a car that left the road and hit a light pole.
The second was on Elliot Heads road near a school, when a woman pulled out of a side road straight in front of traffic and got killed. There was an emotive push in the local paper with headlines like "Don't let our mummy die in vain", and similar sentimental stuff.
The police and Transport Department report said it was completely driver error, the road was good, visibility was fine, the speed limit was appropriate, she did the wrong thing, sorry.

However the council dropped the limit to 80kph anyway.

Down near Gympie there is now a looooooong stretch of highway one which is 90kph with no overtaking allowed, because of several accidents on what was a good stretch of road...usually idiots pulling out in front of highway traffic or in one case overtaking a semi in the pouring rain.
Now you drive down there dawdling along, dictated to by the car up the front of the line and what speed he wishes to do. I travelled for twenty kilometers of that road or more at 70kph in a line of maybe 2km of cars, and when we finally overtook when the restricted area ended and the four lane highway began, I was amazed that the car which had been holding us all up was a new Audi A6 who had decided 70kph was a suitable speed. He kept doing the same speed on the 110kph divided four lane too. Guess which lane he was sitting in...

[flappist]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

most NSW freeways are like that with nothing close to the edge of the road to hit and good wide roadways

Most NSW freeways have thousands of cars an hour driving on them almost 24 hours a day.

[blueoval]

I dont think the speed limit is the question here, it's the claims of saving lives with the use of speed detecting devices. When I see a physical camera actually save a life of a motorist in an accident, then I will become a believer. Till then, proper driver education & police presence will still be my answer instead of instilling wallet thrashing fear into road users. The latter does not change a persons driving habit, it makes them more scared of losing money than the importance of the safety of other road users. We need people to look at the correct motive to change their ways, not the financial one. The financial one only benefits 1 party, and that is not the road users.

[mik]

magnificently put Shav, best post of the thread.

[steve.zissou]

Lex Stewart - legend!!!!!


Roads Minister Duncan Gay - Mr "Damn we need the money"

[FGII-XR6]

true that makes it different to the territory but I'm sure these euro motorways have a lot of traffic too. 110 on NSW freeways is a joke in most cases

Originally Posted by flappist

Most NSW freeways have thousands of cars an hour driving on them almost 24 hours a day.

[MAD]

And what do we do about it as a community?
Roll over and take it I imagine.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

true that makes it different to the territory but I'm sure these euro motorways have a lot of traffic too. 110 on NSW freeways is a joke in most cases

Yes I agree completely with that but I was doing a comparison between regional NT and east coast roads.

I had a bit of a laugh the other day when the rabid zealot scruby tried to change his tact and rather than say NT was the only place in the western world to have (//) which of course would include Germany etc. he changed it to only non divided roads in the western world.

Isle of Man is not in the far east.........

Like all rabid zealots scruby never lets any facts get in the way of his jihad.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by flappist

Most NSW freeways have thousands of cars an hour driving on them almost 24 hours a day.

What about when it is the middle of the night and nobody is around. Why should the speed limit be set around when roads are their busiest? The highway to the gold coast is 6 lanes wide in both directions. In the day it can slow down in sections to about 60-80km/h. Should we set the speed limit to 60 simply because it has occasionally been at those speeds?

[XR6TCraig]

I'm not interested in open speed limits on the Hwys that I use most frequently ( the Bruce and Peak Downs) because they are just not designed for the volume of traffic that they currently carry, nor do they have adequate passing lanes. If the government were to spend some money on these roads to improve them to the point where you had plenty of opportunity to pass, then an open speed limit would be possible (IE 4 lanes, divided road, etc), but this is never going to happen.

There are certain sections of both roads that would accomodate higher limits than what are currently in place though and I would be very keen to see this happen as both of these roads have plenty of fatigue related accidents notched up on their belts.

For example, the Sarina-Malborough-Rockhampton section of the Bruce HWY, the worst bit being Sarina- Malborough.

This is the most boring 300klm stretch on the east coast IMHO, but could be good for up to 150 if the shoulders and lanes were widened (work for this is actually underway at the moment in this section) and wire rope barriers installed on the shoulders. This would decrease the fatigue related accidents that this stretch is notorious for IMHO as you could cut out up to 1 hour over a 300klm stretch, which of course means less time behind the wheel.

[Ben73]

Do you know what is ridiculous. Road work speed limits.
I don't mind them if they are set appropriately in appropriate locations.


This evening driving in a 90 zone. Approached the regular 80 sign, but the one on the medium strip was covered with a temporary 70 sign.
40m after a trailer with electronic 40 sign. 20m later a temporary 80 sign. 200m later a 60 'ahead' sign. 30m later temporary 60 sign. The road work witches hats begin then 30m later temporary 40 sign. 30m later temporary 80 sign. 100m later a temporary 40 sign 100m later End Road Work 80 sign.

So in about 600 metres there were 9 different speed signs.
And they wonder why no one gives a **** about speed limits.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yes I agree completely with that but I was doing a comparison between regional NT and east coast roads.

I had a bit of a laugh the other day when the rabid zealot scruby tried to change his tact and rather than say NT was the only place in the western world to have (//) which of course would include Germany etc. he changed it to only non divided roads in the western world.

Isle of Man is not in the far east.........

Like all rabid zealots scruby never lets any facts get in the way of his jihad.

The (//) sign is still used to full effect (no max) in some Indian states on 'two-lane rurals', and could be applied to motorway class if they desire. Parts of Iran still use it, and you'll find some African states ditto.
http://www.indiandrivingschools.com/...ory-signs.html

http://chandigarhtrafficpolice.org/restrictionends.php

Odd road signs, note the similarity with SWEDEN's version, its 'square' and bears the diagonal stripes, and has the same meaning and is used with the sign appearing to its left (which may carry another numeral/limit that ceases):-
http://www.reisen-tcs.ch/etc/mediali...outiers_en.pdf


Southern Phillipines have it.

The sign still appears in the Malaysian driver ed book with its full meaning, its just not posted thesedays I understand, but was when I lived there back in 72' (Road to Thai border). Thailand may still use it.

NZ have it - but tell you it means 100km/h, so an International driver would be best advised to have the matter determined at the International court of Justice in Geneva.

It appears in some South American countries like Argentina with open effect, though this was about 10 years back.

I am certain there are others in the ME.