Is this topic to controversial to touch...

red_hotxr6 · 08-10-2012, 09:46 AM

I am trying to follow and understand, how these 4 sisters can be forcibly removed from australia and sent back to Italy, when they clearly do not want to go...surely these girls enjoy australian citizenship and have the right to stay here as well.

Maybe the courts could or should have let the father have them for 6 months and the mother for 6 months.. It just seems the way the authorities have done it, is set to traumatise these kids.

I do understand that the kids were taken without the permission of the father, however, what i dont understand is...if the kids had a great relationship with there father, why arent they welcoming him back with open arms?? any thoughts...

Cashie · 08-10-2012, 09:58 AM

The children were kidnapped from the court ordered custodian.
The children have been placed in a shocking situation, of course they are going to protest being uprooted from living with their mother after two years.
Children's wishes generally only play a very small role in the courts decision on custody.

NAK302 · 08-10-2012, 10:02 AM

i want to know why it's been such a big deal on national news for a while now. is there another agenda for someone?

jcxr · 08-10-2012, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cashie

The children were kidnapped from the court ordered custodian.
The children have been placed in a shocking situation, of course they are going to protest being uprooted from living with their mother after two years.
Children's wishes generally only play a very small role in the courts decision on custody.

WRONG. Childrens wishes do come into consideration in custody battles. My son wished to stay with me, and family law court gave him that choice. He was 10 years old at that time.

XWGT · 08-10-2012, 10:22 AM

Human Rights convention

They must firstly be returned to the correct country of jurisdiction, and then the case can be heard.

Its just a prelude if you like

Cashie · 08-10-2012, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcxr

WRONG. Childrens wishes do come into consideration in custody battles. My son wished to stay with me, and family law court gave him that choice. He was 10 years old at that time.

I said "generally"......

NAK302 · 08-10-2012, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcxr

WRONG. Childrens wishes do come into consideration in custody battles. My son wished to stay with me, and family law court gave him that choice. He was 10 years old at that time.

i'll assume you're a man, then i'd suggest you are the luckiest man alive or your ex had some heavy duty issues where it was proven she could not look after your son.

UberKnee · 08-10-2012, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcxr

WRONG. Childrens wishes do come into consideration in custody battles. My son wished to stay with me, and family law court gave him that choice. He was 10 years old at that time.

I think they actually have to be 10 or older for the courts to take the kids opinion into consideration.

red_hotxr6 · 08-10-2012, 10:47 AM

But the way it is now, it just seems like now the kids are being now held by the other parent and the only way for the mother to see them is to go to italy and rent a place probably get a job and have visiting rights. Why not work out a more amicable way so the parents jobs are not disrupted and the kids get to spend equal time with both parents??..
The way it is now, its just hell all the way around...I thought the law was there to protect and help the children, first and foremost??
I found it very distressing watching the father manhandle his kids last night on the news...

Franco Cozzo · 08-10-2012, 11:06 AM

Didn't the Australian Embassy help get them out here in the first place?

XWGT · 08-10-2012, 11:09 AM

Well theres a little more history to it than that

Divorce and custody proceedings have already been heard and finalised in Italy, the childrens birth place, and the father has custody of the children.

The wife had decided she dosnt like the umpires decision and had chosen to return to Australia, which is her right. However, its not her right to take the 4 children as well in contravention of the Italian court order.

If the reverse were the case, an Australian court awarded custody to a mother to children born in Australia, and the father took them to Italy and refused to hand them back, we would all be saying thats kidnapping and demanding the children be returned.

We cant have it both ways.

**cs123** · 08-10-2012, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Didn't the Australian Embassy help get them out here in the first place?

From reports the father agreed to a holiday in Australia, they then stayed on.

I find what the mother did to be disgraceful. She was inflaming the situation rather than trying to settle the kids down.

The kids needed to be returned to Italy so the custody/divorce can be finalised.

XWGT · 08-10-2012, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cs123

The kids needed to be returned to Italy so the custody/divorce can be finalised.

Its already been finalised. The father has custody and had custody before the children were brought to Australia.

2011G6E · 08-10-2012, 11:31 AM

What makes anyone think what the children want is in any way important in custody matters?

I see it all the time at work with divorced guys who's wife has been granted most of the custody, moves thousands of kilometers away, and then smugly says they can "see the kids any time they like", not to mention crippling child support payments that mean the man cannot start a new life with anyone, in effect punishing him twice for the breakup.
I've seen it in my own family...the mothers requests and rights always come first...I personally heard it said in court that the "proper" place for children was first and foremost with the mother...even if she is a druggo or hawks her quoit on the side for cash, she's "the mother" so she must automatically be "the best place for them". That is the basic assumption any man must first face in court before the arguments even begin.

Kevxr8Leexr6 · 08-10-2012, 11:53 AM

Not to mention the crippling costs associated with the family law court of your solicitor, mediation , and months of visits to classes for managing it, all payable as well, if ya lucky to have the bucks to even go through that , visitation is the only likely outcome anyway. hard on all concerned .

davenl5l · 08-10-2012, 12:08 PM

the mother should be punished for using her kids and the media like that.the media should be ashamed for letting her and then putting those poor kids on international media like that.i have no sympathy for the mother or her interfeering relatives!

**cs123** · 08-10-2012, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XWGT

Its already been finalised. The father has custody and had custody before the children were brought to Australia.

Really?, didn't know. It was being reported that it still hasn't be finalised.

Fireblade · 08-10-2012, 12:32 PM

First and foremost we can't rely on information provided by the media, most of the time it is portrayed to inflame a situation, secondly we don't know the full story and likely never will.

I feel sorry for the officers that had to drag these kids out kicking and screaming to put them on a plane to return to Italy, this would be a traumatizing act for them.

XWGT · 08-10-2012, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cs123

Really?, didn't know. It was being reported that it still hasn't be finalised.

Sorry i should clarify that.

The divorce has been settled and there is a JOINT custody agreement for the children.

The mother is legally entitled to shared custody of the children in Italy.

Cam · 08-10-2012, 12:45 PM

This whole thing really grinds my gears...

The mother DID NOT have legal custody, she had no right to have them in Australia. If the mother followed the right avenues and was granted custody of the children, then there would be no issue. There are processes (sometimes questionable ones) to ensure the most competent parent gets custody of the children, and she was not that person! Instead, she illegally held the kids and refused to give them back. Worse yet, she hid the children!
What would happen if it was a rather refusing to give his 4 daughters back? There would be vigilante groups bashing his door down!
Imagine if you had been raising your kids, and in good faith sent them overseas to see their mother who then REFUSED to give them back?! I am a single dad and if my sons mother was overseas and did that to me I would be absolutely devastated!

Sure, the girls have said they want to stay with their mother. Of course they probably want to stay with their mum! How hard would it be to convince 4 girls to stay with their mum in a new country, being spoiled etc

There has NEVER been any "problems" with their father according to the children, they have said that they love him and he was always good to them but they "just want to be with their mother".. If we let children decide where they wanted to live, some Children would go and see their fathers for school holidays and refuse to go home to their mother because daddys house was more fun! I wonder if society would be accepting of that?

The mother is a moron, and her actions are more proof that she is not competent to look after the children. Anyone that hides children from their caregiver is in the same boat (moron fathers included)

/Flame suit on

msman · 08-10-2012, 01:13 PM

more to it from what i have read.
the children when they first arrived in austrlia said they wanted to go back to Italy and be with their father but have since been brainwashed by the mother and her family. (I believe brainwash is the right way to put it as well)
the girls maternal grandmother has said she hates all italians and that they are all liars.

what i don't understand is why has it taken 2 years for the courts to do what is the right thing.

the mother has gotten off lightly i think she should be ashamed of herself along with all the australian media who are making the father look like some sort of monster. she kidnapped the girls hid them from the law stole 2 years of their life with their father.

**Full Noise** · 08-10-2012, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msman

more to it from what i have read.
the children when they first arrived in austrlia said they wanted to go back to Italy and be with their father but have since been brainwashed by the mother and her family. (I believe brainwash is the right way to put it as well)
the girls maternal grandmother has said she hates all italians and that they are all liars.

what i don't understand is why has it taken 2 years for the courts to do what is the right thing.

the mother has gotten off lightly i think she should be ashamed of herself along with all the australian media who are making the father look like some sort of monster. she kidnapped the girls hid them from the law stole 2 years of their life with their father.

In my opinion, the mother should be put in jail. And yes, brainwashing is the right word to use in a situation like this.

As others here have mentioned, there’s always a lot more to the story and I would never trust the media to give the full story, in fact, I wouldn’t even trust the media to give a balanced view if the full story was known. Not a lot of ratings in the truth. Also, I think that it’s pretty poor form for the media to be there when the girls were being removed from the house and making a scene at the airport.

I always look at stories like this and wonder what would happen if the situation was reversed.

It’s amazing how many people forget that (some) women can be incredibly nasty and vindictive when they want to be. If they all were darling little petals, we wouldn’t have or need maximum security prisons for women.

Off topic.
Last week I was chasing up some money from a place that I did a job for. When I was on the phone to the boss lady, I was called just about every name under the sun, had my personal safety threatened by this woman and was threatened with an AVO if I contacted them.

Now (with the exception of the AVO, as it’s such a girl thing) what would happen if I did that the same thing to her?

Jim Goose · 08-10-2012, 02:07 PM

The kids didnt even have Australian passports... and are citizens of Italy.

The mother kidnapped them (when she lied about taking them to Australia for holiday). The father had agreed they could go on holidays and they never returned.

The matter has nothing to do with Australia.... and was settled in Italy.

She has visiting rights to...

05_ENFORCER · 08-10-2012, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

The kids didnt even have Australian passports... and are citizens of Italy.

The mother kidnapped them (when she lied about taking them to Australia for holiday). The father had agreed they could go on holidays and they never returned.

The matter has nothing to do with Australia.... and was settled in Italy.

She has visiting rights to...

They would have had passports to get to Oz

.

xisled · 08-10-2012, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

The kids didnt even have Australian passports... and are citizens of Italy.

The mother kidnapped them (when she lied about taking them to Australia for holiday). The father had agreed they could go on holidays and they never returned.

The matter has nothing to do with Australia.... and was settled in Italy.

She has visiting rights to...

That is not correct an Australian court ruled in favour of the fathers side based on international law. The judge said in his closing statement, that if he went against international law he would be setting a precedent which would have people coming to Australia to hide there kids. It was in court here in Australia for the 2 years and that is why it took so long.

The ruling to deport the kids back to Italy was made by a judge here in Australia, that is why the AFP officers forced the mother to give up the kids.

**supershifty** · 08-10-2012, 03:06 PM

Sadly, out of all of this, as in most family breakdowns it's the children that ultimately lose - nobody wins.

Doesn't matter if it's the next suburb or 10,000 miles away, these children's lives have and will be affected the most.

I really feel sadness for all the family/ies involved. I only know what has been reported in the media, and there is most likely a whole lot of relevant info that hasn't been covered because it isn't newsworthy to the spin that has been put on it.

While I can sympathise with the mother's actions based on emotions - marriage meltdown/blood family/support in Australia etc, this does not make her actions right. The matter was dealt with under Italian law with Italian born children. The mother did the wrong thing - she should have dealt with it in Italy, and under their laws. There's plenty of "tough poo" administered custody/child care "arrangements" in Australia that have to be lived with that aren't easy to run away from.

Cam: No need for the flame suit - I think we're barking up the right tree here.

noosacuda · 08-10-2012, 03:24 PM

The mother has "coached" the kids very well, great performance!
Just a thought though, how come 4 girls can be forcibly deported, but thousands of illegal immigrants can't be?

**TUF_302** · 08-10-2012, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XWGT

Well theres a little more history to it than that

Divorce and custody proceedings have already been heard and finalised in Italy, the childrens birth place, and the father has custody of the children.

The wife had decided she dosnt like the umpires decision and had chosen to return to Australia, which is her right. However, its not her right to take the 4 children as well in contravention of the Italian court order.

If the reverse were the case, an Australian court awarded custody to a mother to children born in Australia, and the father took them to Italy and refused to hand them back, we would all be saying thats kidnapping and demanding the children be returned.

We cant have it both ways.

Agreed, if it was the other way around people here would be demanding there return to Aus

Peter B - CV8 · 08-10-2012, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 05_ENFORCER

They would have had passports to get to Oz

.

Noooo. If they are Italian born - they would have Italian passports & would need to arrange a (holiday) Visa to visit Australia. Pretty sure that's how it works.

karj · 08-10-2012, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noosacuda

The mother has "coached" the kids very well, great performance!
Just a thought though, how come 4 girls can be forcibly deported, but thousands of illegal immigrants can't be?

Illegal immigrants are deported, refugees are not.

Those who seek refugee status and are found not to be genuine are deported (remember the Bakhtiari family?) and there is nothing illegal domestically or internationally about coming via boat if seeking asylum in Australia.