Another win for Holden that they didn't want

**buggerlugs** · 10-06-2009, 09:42 AM

http://www.news.com.au/business/stor...61-462,00.html

Wally · 10-06-2009, 09:52 AM

That's a bit like bragging Richmond are better than Melbourne... neither are kicking goals.

Customer satisfaction surveys have a tenuous influence on sales.

csv8 · 10-06-2009, 10:06 AM

But people still buy them !!!!!

Ducati888 · 10-06-2009, 01:41 PM

So all the makers range from 7.2/10 to 7.8/10.

Not much in it really.

DanielXR8 · 10-06-2009, 01:50 PM

A lot of Ford service departments will be very bitter about this loss to Holden. Certainly not due to a lack of effort on their part. Only the other day they came at the bottom of the pile in a choice survey.

Put another way... There but by the grace of Holden goes Ford.

Not a race that Ford should be competing with Holden in - but it does.

ea90gl · 10-06-2009, 06:09 PM

a bit off topic but did anyone else read this article linked off the first article

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-13232,00.html

these guys seem to be morons if you ask me. How about supporting Australian cars instead of slagging them off. Also putting a pic of an R8 and FPV with an article relating to Calais and G6E doesnt help there case

:

chief · 10-06-2009, 09:58 PM

Pretty dissapointing verdict from the Australian article ea90gl posted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Australianl

DRIVING these cars back-to-back showed just how close they are. Despite being the newer model and having a few more modern features, the Ford has nothing on the Holden.

ChemicalHorizon · 11-06-2009, 03:48 AM

Whoever wrote that article is terribad. They cant seem to decide if they are good cars or bad cars, its whisshy wasshy crap.

Swordsman88 · 11-06-2009, 04:49 AM

The writers of that australian article are as wrong as they are inept. Moving on the from the entire tone of the article (which was really an opinion piece justified by the presence of some pretty inane driving impressions), the factual basis of the document is pretty thin.

The authors note that you can hardly tell the difference between the two in terms of acceleration...ah yes you can. In fact auto commodores are UP TO A SECOND slower than comarable falcons to 100km/h. They say, power delivery aside (and this would only help the falcon) seat of the pants impressions are accurate from as little as 0.2 of a second. Certainly most people can tell by teh time you get to 1 second!!! As for the GM 5speed auto being better at highway shifting than the ZF 6 speed...since when has that gearbox been better in ANY SINGLE AREA than the Ford box. It can't even match our 5 speed!!!

Other points made rather obviously show an anti-local product bias. References to interior build quality is one area....anyone who thinks an FG is 'noticeably' more poorly built than most of its japanese competitors is crazy. Sure upon close inspection it might be a slight bit worse...but this depends on which models you are comparing. Certainly nowhere near enough to bother putting the lower sales of large cars at the feet of 'poor interior trim'. If that was the case why do Hyundais sell so well (they have improved but certainly are not better build inside than an FG....).

Plus there is the old 'uneven boot floor' chestnut. What a crock of .... . Who cares anyway, if you don't buy an FG because of that you deserve to drive a camry LOL! How that saves Ford money i'll be damned, though apparently the authors think it does....

The problem with these stories is not the misleading points made about the cars, though that certainly doesn't help. Its the 'dinosaur' references. Ford and Holden have invested alot of effort and money in making truly world class cars. Yes the 'consumer reports' (getting back on topic) aren't great...but that takes in a whole range of other areas of the buying process (like the dealers....) and i dont' put much value on them anyway. Dollar for dollar they are great value...but they are also great cars and if your needs require a large car, you should consider them. Not because their local, or even because they are well priced, but because they are damn good. Despite what these tools think.....

:

Gobes32 · 11-06-2009, 08:51 AM

Makes you wonder why Australian's have such a low opinion of locally built product? What do Ford and Holden have to do to ensure they no longer are "dinosaur" companies???

jphanna · 11-06-2009, 09:38 AM

in last 15 years i had/have 2 commodores and 2 falcons. 1 corrolla. in the whole time i had the corrolla (9 years) all that actually broke was the plastic lug holding onto the door open mechanism. it cost me $2.00 at toyota dealership to buy and they fitted it for nothing.

both my falcons leaked more oil than the EXXON tanker and both commodore have/had heaps of electraical glitches.....including current VE......

my corrola was made in australia so why didint that leak and have any other probs?

mcnews · 11-06-2009, 10:03 AM

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-13232,00.html

That seems like a fair article to me, summarises the main points to the lowest common denominator who have no idea about cars and don't care what flavour they come in general newspaper reader type individual to which the article is aimed at.

GS608 · 11-06-2009, 10:43 AM

"There are other signs of the money running out, such as the fitment of only two fixed rear headrests."

not sure why that matters at all? picking any little thing to about

"Blindfolded passengers in the G6E who have ridden in the Blue Oval's high-mileage taxis will immediately identify the Falcon. The raucous bellow of the G6E's soundtrack is overlaid by an unfortunate transmission whine"

nice little dig and completely unnecessary, we have a 6sp FG and there is no whine at all

Gobes32 · 11-06-2009, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jphanna

in last 15 years i had/have 2 commodores and 2 falcons. 1 corrolla. in the whole time i had the corrolla (9 years) all that actually broke was the plastic lug holding onto the door open mechanism. it cost me $2.00 at toyota dealership to buy and they fitted it for nothing.

both my falcons leaked more oil than the EXXON tanker and both commodore have/had heaps of electraical glitches.....including current VE......

my corrola was made in australia so why didint that leak and have any other probs?

Look's like you answered my question, the quality on local cars still is terrible. For every person that has had a great experience from buying their car through to owning it (me), there are 5 other people who have had a bad experience with Ford in some way or other. The problem is, can Ford fix all the problems that still seem to plague local car builders ( not including Toyota )???

phillyc · 11-06-2009, 03:53 PM

Swordsman88, i'm 100% with you. It's a heap of crap article written by someone with little knowledge. Unoftunately, most people have no knowledge and will take this as gospel.

Very little was made of the fact that Falcon used 10.2L versus Commodore 11.2L.

No difference in acceleration? WTF?

The 5spd GMH is better than the world reknowned and once luxury car only ZF 6spd? No way.

The Falcon i6 isn't refined? Wheels compared it favourably (but not better than) BMW 6's...

The change in shape in the boot floor of Falcon can be useful. ie briefcases, manoevring goods into and out of the boot. What about the split fold rear seat? I use that on my Falcon on a regular basis.

The description of the crash test results highlights the Falcon's prowess, but the way it was written, suggests that it needs 6 airbags to get that result. It didn't, it was with 4 airbags. Ie Falcon is safer (scored higher) with 4 air bags compared to C'dore with 6 airbags...

Rrrrrr.

mcnews · 11-06-2009, 04:11 PM

It is amazing how people read things so differently when they have blinkers on....

RG · 11-06-2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

It is amazing how people read things so differently when they have blinkers on....

Then maybe you should try taking them off?

jphanna · 11-06-2009, 04:34 PM

apart form the XF days (when ford could do nothing wrong and had 23% of market) the falcon has had an ongoing image problem against the commodore. Even though many falcon models may have had technical superiority over eqivalent holden model.

marketing dept to blame?

vztrt · 11-06-2009, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Look's like you answered my question, the quality on local cars still is terrible. For every person that has had a great experience from buying their car through to owning it (me), there are 5 other people who have had a bad experience with Ford in some way or other. The problem is, can Ford fix all the problems that still seem to plague local car builders ( not including Toyota )???

Well if we look at that graph Mazda and Honda would be the only cars you would wanna buy as they were above the average.
Toyota and Holden seems to have slipped the most out of the car makes, and the Koreans are making the best inroads.

schnoods · 11-06-2009, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Makes you wonder why Australian's have such a low opinion of locally built product? What do Ford and Holden have to do to ensure they no longer are "dinosaur" companies???

Well having the near on same motor for so many years might be a factor, bad memories of previous products with the same name....

mcnews · 11-06-2009, 09:56 PM

That is an excellent point. If Joe Average last drove an XF or EA he is probably not all that likely to think that the current Aussie sedans can hold a candle to the better imported stuff.

**ebxr8240** · 11-06-2009, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johanna

in last 15 years i had/have 2 commodores and 2 falcons. 1 corolla. in the whole time i had the corolla (9 years) all that actually broke was the plastic lug holding onto the door open mechanism. it cost me $2.00 at toyota dealership to buy and they fitted it for nothing.

both my falcons leaked more oil than the EXXON tanker and both commodore have/had heaps of electrical glitches.....including current VE......

my corolla was made in australia so why don't that leak and have any other probs?

I have all three of them too..
The corolla didn't last long pulling the boat / caravan up to Brooklyn..
While the other two though had their minor issues did what I wanted..
When using the Toyota towing the caravan its brakes didn't work.. The other two cars had no issues ..

The Snout · 12-06-2009, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jphanna

in last 15 years i had/have 2 commodores and 2 falcons. 1 corrolla. in the whole time i had the corrolla (9 years) all that actually broke was the plastic lug holding onto the door open mechanism. it cost me $2.00 at toyota dealership to buy and they fitted it for nothing.

both my falcons leaked more oil than the EXXON tanker and both commodore have/had heaps of electraical glitches.....including current VE......

my corrola was made in australia so why didint that leak and have any other probs?

Had a Camry and had the same experience. The Camry went 360K before getting rid of it and it just needed a change of leads, $90 at the time.

Wally · 12-06-2009, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

That is an excellent point. If Joe Average last drove an XF or EA he is probably not all that likely to think that the current Aussie sedans can hold a candle to the better imported stuff.

I think you can expand on that a bit:

If there are "X" amount of cars on the road and "Y" amount of new sales per annum and new car buyers tend to rollover every 4 years, then people driving obsolete cars "Z" is roughly

Z = X- 4Y.

A large proportion of Z is the previous 4Y discards.

It would be interesting to know how many Z owners are asked their opinion in surveys or in fact are most vocal about their opinions. I know from my experience every new car I buy is better than the last. To my mind satisfaction surveys should be based on current model usage, not on future or historical purchase decision bias.

And lets face it there are really only three large cars in Oz and the Toyota is not a looker by any stretch; more suited to the beige population. If only 10% of new car sales are Falcon and Commodores, there must have been a fairly small sample canvassed and who's to know they didn't survey some AFF members who bagged out the Holden and some LS1 members who returned the favour?

ltd · 12-06-2009, 09:51 AM

Philip King and Philip Lord wrote the article (Phill-up each other more like it) and they both know as much about cars as they do about women. These two jokers both drive hybrids and are convinced that man has caused global warming....err, global cooling.... err, climate change. Most of their article (they must have enjoyed writing it together whilst sniffing their own flatulence in a cloud of smug - see South Park) is patently false and riddled with errors.
ZF gearbox whine? WTF?
I bet if someone told the two phill-em-ups that the gearbox was used in their much vaunted European marquees then they would have loved it. Face it, most of the motoring journalist fraternity are a bunch of pretentious twats.

mcnews · 12-06-2009, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

Face it, most of the motoring journalist fraternity are a bunch of pretentious twats.

Do you know many? Know anything about any of them? Or their history in cars?

RG · 12-06-2009, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

Do you know many? Know anything about any of them? Or their history in cars?

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but you are one and you are heavily biased against Ford and refuse to accept that anyone else's opinion has anywhere near the validity or merit of your own.

So there is one.

mcnews · 12-06-2009, 10:11 AM

I am biased against Ford....? That must be why we had two XR6 Turbos in the household for quite a while and then traded one of those in on an F6...

I read/listen to all opinion on here and find some of it very useful food for thought, as does anyone that does not have blinkers on.

I have been helped by some on here, and have helped some on here. Same as everyone I guess.

ltd · 12-06-2009, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnews

Do you know many? Know anything about any of them? Or their history in cars?

Actually I do. My sister is managing director of a publishing company (not partially owned by Fairfax) which produces 6 monthly magazines and knows most of the people in the biz. She went to charles sturt uni and did journalism back in 1988 and actually studied with quite a number of them there (jessica rowe for example).

That's how I know what cars these guys drive. The other assertions are a bit innuenedo though, tongue in cheek like the proverbial "fair shake of the sauce bottle".

mcnews · 12-06-2009, 10:45 AM

You still haven't mentioned that you know any of them but your comments can be fair in part. I will say that some of the motoring journos certainly can be a little eccentric in some ways. But open slander against their professionalism is pretty rough. No different than someone getting on here and saying tuner x is completely hopeless etc. Many of the motoring journos also have trades, some as mechanics some as trades outside of the auto world etc. Most that have ended up in the motoring field were car nuts first and foremost and then went on to study journalism or learned on the job while starting out as the office errand boy. The ones that were journos first and enthusiasts second I do like reading the least that is certain, but again not being an enthusiast can help objectivity. But nearly all take their job quite seriously, and most definitely do not like dissing product.

I should also add that most can also earn a lot more money under a lot better conditions and work hours doing other things than following cars. But they do it because they like it.