Mondeo 2011 Turbo Diesel lack of power

[JustBill]

Ive searched threads for an answer to my problem but no success. Sorry if this is a repetitive one.

Just bought this 2011 Mondeo Turbo Diesel automatic. 170,000 with service history since leaving the factory. I have never driven one before this so not sure if this is normal for a Diesel Mondeo.

Takes time to reach speeds and even longer in slight climbs. Example, standing start take off i will hit 60km in roughly 100 meters. Very dangerous turning into traffic when finding a gap. Another example while in a minor climb is the exit ramp out of my town merging onto the hwy has a climb not that steep..... but Takes me almost 1000 meters in distance to reach 100km speed and only doing around 60km at the point of merge. I'ts as if i'm towing a truck behind. Rev gage shows 2500-3500 rpm in-between gear change (depending on the slope of the road).

No Engine lights appear. No codes showing when plugged in. Turbo tested and it's fine.

PS: Another strange happening is i can feel the gear change kick down when approaching a intersection. I feel the jerk at around 40-35km speed. It's as if it shifts down to 2nd or 1st to early. Not sure if this is also normal for a power shift

Anyone with an idea? or is this gutless acceleration normal for a Mondeo

[NZ XR6]

No, that's not normal, it is a very grunty engine and pulls hard from just over 1500 rpm.

I'm not sure what could cause a loss of power like that and not generate a code. Loss of boost is one possibility, but that should result in at least one code.

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

[AlanM]

Some possibilities come to mind. The fuel filter or air filter might need replacing. A service "history" doesn't actually mean any real services were carried out, just that they were billed for.

Possibly a faulty injector. Maybe perform a leak back test. You could try some injector cleaner too.

There could be some restriction in the exhaust. A blocked DPF should throw codes, but there could possibly be some physical damage to the exhaust.

Someone who knows a lot more about these cars than me suggested that the intercooler could be partially blocked with oil from the PCV system.

It should definitely rev out past 3500rpm, going close to redline.

I guess it's possible the inlet manifold is gunged up with EGR soot combined the PCV oil. That wouldn't throw any codes AFAIK.

Re the transmission: I would definitely look at changing the oil and external filter. DIY is best, there's videos on YouTube on how to do it. If you don't want to DIY try to find a transmission place with a clue about these cars. (There aren't many)

[AlanM]

Another thought, it could simply be the throttle position sensor.

A possible way to check if it's this would be to use the cruise control to accelerate. If you're going about 40kmh on cruise, and press and hold the + button, the car will normally accelerate pretty fast. If it does, then the throttle pedal sensor could be the problem.

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by AlanM

Another thought, it could simply be the throttle position sensor.

A possible way to check if it's this would be to use the cruise control to accelerate. If you're going about 40kmh on cruise, and press and hold the + button, the car will normally accelerate pretty fast. If it does, then the throttle pedal sensor could be the problem.

I will give it a try thanks.
Took it to a mechanic who had it for 2 days and looked over it. They were 100% certain the injector seals is the cause and need replacement. So i did that myself. But no change, still drives the same.

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by AlanM

Some possibilities come to mind. The fuel filter or air filter might need replacing. A service "history" doesn't actually mean any real services were carried out, just that they were billed for.

Possibly a faulty injector. Maybe perform a leak back test. You could try some injector cleaner too.

There could be some restriction in the exhaust. A blocked DPF should throw codes, but there could possibly be some physical damage to the exhaust.

Someone who knows a lot more about these cars than me suggested that the intercooler could be partially blocked with oil from the PCV system.

It should definitely rev out past 3500rpm, going close to redline.

I guess it's possible the inlet manifold is gunged up with EGR soot combined the PCV oil. That wouldn't throw any codes AFAIK.

Re the transmission: I would definitely look at changing the oil and external filter. DIY is best, there's videos on YouTube on how to do it. If you don't want to DIY try to find a transmission place with a clue about these cars. (There aren't many)

My local mechanic had the car for 2 days and went over it. Diagnosis: Turbo works, no air leaks, zero codes, Auto fine, 100% certain injector seals need replacing.

I replaced them and now i can say it's 100% certain wasn't the problem as it drives exactly the same.

[Citroënbender]

Lack of meaningful boost, just need to find out why.

[Citroënbender]

A further note, I hadn’t taken in before today, that Alan Howatt (YT Mondeo taxi expert cited in other posts) has permanently upped stumps and moved to a Filipino village with his better half. He might well be up for some affordable paid consultation - is a pretty clued up character. Or someone could just be cheeky and invite him to join the forum!

[AlanM]

Originally Posted by JustBill

My local mechanic had the car for 2 days and went over it. Diagnosis: Turbo works, no air leaks, zero codes, Auto fine, 100% certain injector seals need replacing.

I replaced them and now i can say it's 100% certain wasn't the problem as it drives exactly the same.

Yeah I had a car with leaky injector seals (the copper washers) and it drove fine apart from a burnt smell at times.

That wasn't what I meant by the leak back test though. That's where the internal seals on an injector are failing and too much of the fuel pressure is being lost down the leak back line.

There are other things that are easier to check first though. The leak back test requires a little investment in some parts.

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by AlanM

Yeah I had a car with leaky injector seals (the copper washers) and it drove fine apart from a burnt smell at times.

That wasn't what I meant by the leak back test though. That's where the internal seals on an injector are failing and too much of the fuel pressure is being lost down the leak back line.

There are other things that are easier to check first though. The leak back test requires a little investment in some parts.

Roger that.

I did take the injectors for testing and just got them back yesterday after one mechanic felt certain that the injectors were faulty. Results came back injectors are fine. They were cleaned up new copper washes fitted and placed back in the car, No change to the power. This is becoming Trial and Error and becoming expensive. I'm baffled why 3 different mechanics physically inspected it and none can solve the issue.

PS: A symptom i haven't mentioned yet,,,,, when accelerating the rev gauge pulsates around 50-100 rpms. it pulsates up/down every 1 second looking at my watch. When using cruise control driving on level ground (no acceleration needed) rev gauge is steady. You can't hear the revs nor feel it, it's that minor.

And still no codes nor engine light popping up.

[Citroënbender]

We recently had a Benz in the shop with the supercharged “Kompressor” engine. Without the intake sealed properly, revs would hunt up and down.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by NZ XR6

No, that's not normal, it is a very grunty engine and pulls hard from just over 1500 rpm.

I'm not sure what could cause a loss of power like that and not generate a code. Loss of boost is one possibility, but that should result in at least one code.

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

My LV TDCI Focus blew it's intercooler hose off and no codes, certainly worth checking for boost leaks, they're also common for cracking intake pipe into the turbo at the flange.

I reckon you have a leak somewhere in the induction pipework post turbo, or a hole in the intercooler.

The ECU is smart enough to limit fuel in the case of not enough air to prevent it from belching out black smoke, but not cluey enough to throw codes for it.

Same engine as my old Focus, same engine management system.

Mine also blew injector seals, and also it's injectors return line, all it did was leak diesel over itself, didn't cause any issues with performance.

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

My LV TDCI Focus blew it's intercooler hose off and no codes, certainly worth checking for boost leaks, they're also common for cracking intake pipe into the turbo at the flange.

I reckon you have a leak somewhere in the induction pipework post turbo, or a hole in the intercooler.

The ECU is smart enough to limit fuel in the case of not enough air to prevent it from belching out black smoke, but not cluey enough to throw codes for it.

Same engine as my old Focus, same engine management system.

Mine also blew injector seals, and also it's injectors return line, all it did was leak diesel over itself, didn't cause any issues with performance.

I'm going to visit a third mechanic in coming days. Thanks for your thoughts and i will mention it to him. The ECU restricting fuel due to a air leak makes sense why i can't get any grunt.

Also, i discovered something else in the engine bay. On the fire wall, there seems to be a splatter of very light brown clay like dirt. Could be a pipe or hose of some sort at the turbo side of the engine. I don't think driving over a muddy puddle caused this due to the drip cover under the car. The first mechanic said he checked all the hoses and pipes leading in and out of the turbo and didn't identify a issue. He pulled the exhaust back a bit and seen the turbo working. I'm starting to think now..... "Or did he check?"

[JustBill]

Just got a third opinion. Worse news and that the Powershift transmission is gone which is why its powerless due to slipping. Revs to 3000+ meaning engine is fantastic and nothing wrong with the power coming from this turbo diesel. I'm gutted, this car was purchased privately for my son which i picked 5 weeks ago using my sons money that he saved, who is due to come back from overseas soon. I've let him down. What a useless father i am.

[AlanM]

If it's not shuddering or clunking the transmission may just need new oil. These things need hydraulic pressure to make the clutches engage. If the oil is bad you can get excessive slipping.

There's plenty of videos on YouTube on doing the oil change. It's not as straightforward as most, but it's not hard either. Do the external filter too. Supercheap get them in pretty quick. Their part number is WTF4. Easy to remember!

Once you've done the oil change it might be worth doing a clutch relearn on Forscan.

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by AlanM

If it's not shuddering or clunking the transmission may just need new oil. These things need hydraulic pressure to make the clutches engage. If the oil is bad you can get excessive slipping.

There's plenty of videos on YouTube on doing the oil change. It's not as straightforward as most, but it's not hard either. Do the external filter too. Supercheap get them in pretty quick. Their part number is WTF4. Easy to remember!

Once you've done the oil change it might be worth doing a clutch relearn on Forscan.

Yeh i changed the oil and filter yesterday, no improvement. Old oil was dark brown. Haven't done clutch relearn. it changes gears smoothly except it kicks hard when acceleration after breaking to a slow crawl at a intersection (assuming kicking into second gear) and noticeable down shift to 3rd gear when decrease in speed down to 35km and you can here the rev as if it goes into 3rd to early.1st mechanic said this kick it's due to broken engine mounts. But i'm thinking it's not and that the transmission is faulty. I can't believe i didn't pick this issue up when i first bought it. Never driven a mondeo before, thinking the power (or lack thereof) it's normal for a 2 litre diesel.

[AlanM]

Have a look at this channel on YouTube:

https://youtube.com/@yepthatsit?si=DlJagU94IetLjNi-

He has fixed some severely malfunctioning powershift and Volvo DCTs. (Same transmission) by basically cleaning out the valve body and demagnetising the solenoids.

Also, changing the oil may not produce an instant fix. The TCM will have adapted to dirty old oil and may take time to relearn having new oil. A clutch learn could help.

It's certainly worth trying before assuming the transmission is shot.

[JustBill]

Update: Mechanic #2 said Mechanic #3 doesn't know what he's talking about. My problem isn't with the transmission.

So I considered the air intake gaskets. When I opened it up.... my goodness the carbon soot around the air intake cover and the engine ports was so bad, you couldn't slip a 10cent piece in it. Cleaned them up as best I can using a carbon removal spray specifically designed for diesel engines.

Now after putting the engine bits and pieces back together again and to see how it runs ... the car won't start. It turns over but won't ignite. Faults did come up on a scan one was fuel pressure low the other cam position sensor low reading. This was after connecting the battery again. So I cleared the faults but no start still remains even though the faults have not come back up again.

So I bought myself a volt meter and tested the cam position sensor. There are 3 wires on the sensor connector signal = ground = voltage. I'm getting 5v on the signal wire, but zero reading on the voltage wire. This is with the sensor removed just testing the adapter.

So I'm confident the carbon soot blockages was the low power issue, bur I can't test it out with this new cam sensor issue. That's if it's a faulty cam sensor or wiring.

[simon varley]

are those two sensors even near the intake? sorry, I can't remember the engine well enough. Did you disconnect them when you stripped it down?

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by simon varley

are those two sensors even near the intake? sorry, I can't remember the engine well enough. Did you disconnect them when you stripped it down?

Yes, the cam sensor sits on top of the engine and I had to remove it inorder to remove the intake manifold (plastic cover)

[aussiblue]

that Alan Howatt (YT Mondeo taxi expert cited in other posts) has permanently upped stumps and moved to a Filipino village with his better half.

Not exactly; he is there with his son Tyler and living with the Filipino lady, Ken, he met online. He's been their just over year now but he still hasn't said it's permanent. As I have some Filipino family (with my English wife I have two adopted sons from the Phillipines) I have been watching his adventures there with interest and occasionally exchange onlines messages with him; WA sharing the same time zone as the Philippines also helps and I was there in April/May again visiting Manila, El Nido, Puerto Princesa Palawan. But yes, he still occasionally mentions his interest in Mondeos and still answers related question online e.g.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtBMQUDi8eo&t=4398s

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by JustBill

Update: Mechanic #2 said Mechanic #3 doesn't know what he's talking about. My problem isn't with the transmission.

So I considered the air intake gaskets. When I opened it up.... my goodness the carbon soot around the air intake cover and the engine ports was so bad, you couldn't slip a 10cent piece in it. Cleaned them up as best I can using a carbon removal spray specifically designed for diesel engines.

Now after putting the engine bits and pieces back together again and to see how it runs ... the car won't start. It turns over but won't ignite. Faults did come up on a scan one was fuel pressure low the other cam position sensor low reading. This was after connecting the battery again. So I cleared the faults but no start still remains even though the faults have not come back up again.

So I bought myself a volt meter and tested the cam position sensor. There are 3 wires on the sensor connector signal = ground = voltage. I'm getting 5v on the signal wire, but zero reading on the voltage wire. This is with the sensor removed just testing the adapter.

So I'm confident the carbon soot blockages was the low power issue, bur I can't test it out with this new cam sensor issue. That's if it's a faulty cam sensor or wiring.

Did you happen to disconnect any fuel lines? If you did may have air in the fuel system, they have no hand pump and have to be vacuum bled to get the air out of them, its a right pain in the *** that presents itself on fuel filter changes.

[aussiblue]

with the Filipino lady, Ken, he met online.

Oops that should "Khen".

[AlanM]

Originally Posted by JustBill

Update: Mechanic #2 said Mechanic #3 doesn't know what he's talking about. My problem isn't with the transmission.

So I considered the air intake gaskets. When I opened it up.... my goodness the carbon soot around the air intake cover and the engine ports was so bad, you couldn't slip a 10cent piece in it. Cleaned them up as best I can using a carbon removal spray specifically designed for diesel engines.

Now after putting the engine bits and pieces back together again and to see how it runs ... the car won't start. It turns over but won't ignite. Faults did come up on a scan one was fuel pressure low the other cam position sensor low reading. This was after connecting the battery again. So I cleared the faults but no start still remains even though the faults have not come back up again.

So I bought myself a volt meter and tested the cam position sensor. There are 3 wires on the sensor connector signal = ground = voltage. I'm getting 5v on the signal wire, but zero reading on the voltage wire. This is with the sensor removed just testing the adapter.

So I'm confident the carbon soot blockages was the low power issue, bur I can't test it out with this new cam sensor issue. That's if it's a faulty cam sensor or wiring.

Yes, the EGR soot combined with the PCV oil produces a sticky bituminous glow that builds up everywhere on the intake system downstream of the throttle body.

With that model, if the EGR system gets blocked, say by a piece of metal (maybe cut out from a tin can) accidentally falling into where it joins the throttle body, you'll get no codes, no check engine light, and no more glop blocking up
the intake.

Fuel economy will improve a little though.
Just saying...

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Did you happen to disconnect any fuel lines? If you did may have air in the fuel system, they have no hand pump and have to be vacuum bled to get the air out of them, its a right pain in the *** that presents itself on fuel filter changes.

Yes i did, i had to remove the injectors and all. But it wasn't the first time as i needed to get the injectors tested and new seals/Washers put on them. i didn't have this problem previously.

Though i did get a P1168 Code (P1168 Code is displayed when the fuel pressure detected by the fuel rail sensor is lower than the ideal levels).
I removed the leak off pipe and diesel is definitely coming through as fuel leaked from the area where the leak off pipe was removed from each injector.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by JustBill

Yes i did, i had to remove the injectors and all. But it wasn't the first time as i needed to get the injectors tested and new seals/Washers put on them. i didn't have this problem previously.

Though i did get a P1168 Code (P1168 Code is displayed when the fuel pressure detected by the fuel rail sensor is lower than the ideal levels).
I removed the leak off pipe and diesel is definitely coming through as fuel leaked from the area where the leak off pipe was removed from each injector.

Realistically you need an oscilloscope to check the output from the CMP, resistance and voltage tests are very rudimentary verification,

I'd be bleeding the fuel system, I think they need about 200 BAR of fuel pressure at the injectors before they'll fire. There's no lift pump on these to lift fuel from the tank to the injection pump - it relies on the injection pump alone to suck it out of the tank.

It's a shit design, junk Siemens electronics as the sprinkles on the shit sandwich - the French should stick to white flags and Olympics open ceremonies, it's a PSA DW10 engine, the below shows a bleeding procedure.



Give it a crack and see if it starts, you might need to vacuum bleed through the return side too.

[JustBill]

Firstly thank you to Franco Cozzo for the advice. And lololol regarding the French. So true.

I've bleed the fuel lines but still won't start although it was needed anyway.

I've ran my OBD2 scanner and this is the only fault that came up and has something to do with Fuel Rail System.

PS Did a google search and these are the possibilities for a P0087 engine code. (My thoughts in brackets)

1) Bad Fuel Pressure Sensor (couldn't be the cause for not starting, if the sensor senses pressure not causes low pressure)
2) Clogged Fuel Filter (it started perfectly fine before this sudden no start problem. There would have been a gradual symptoms)
3) Bad Low Pressure Fuel Pump (LPFP) (not qualified to know how to test)
4) Bad High Pressure Fuel Pump (HPFP) (not qualified to know how to test)
5) Bad Cam Follower (Symptoms noted are high pitched tapping sounds. This never occurred)
6) Bad Fuel Pressure Regulator (I can search on where it's located, but no idea on how to tell if faulty)

Also it's mentioned bad engine oil could be a reason and it's usually the problem that mechanics do first which is change oil. It's got me beat how engine oil effects fuel rail.

If anyone can translate it and give me ideas, it would be much appreciated https://app.photobucket.com/share/e9...0-e0403c521f6e

[Franco Cozzo]

Its low but its also not low enough to not fire the injectors, works out to be circa 650 BAR (needs 200 BAR to open injectors).

I'm assuming you cleared all the codes and its come back again?

Also probably going to sound silly and coincidental, when was the last time the fuel filter was changed?

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Its low but its also not low enough to not fire the injectors, works out to be circa 650 BAR (needs 200 BAR to open injectors).

I'm assuming you cleared all the codes and its come back again?

Also probably going to sound silly and coincidental, when was the last time the fuel filter was changed?

Yes i clear the codes and it keeps coming back. Though no engine light.

I've only had the car 6 weeks. It came with a full service history (but doesn't specify what was done as part of these services)

What i have done so far so sought out the lack of power and now non start:
A) Test and clean the injectors and add new seals to injectors
B) change transmission fluid and filter
C) New intake manifold gaskets
D) Decarbed the engine intake ports and manifold using a Diesel engine intake Decarb fluid (check photos below and see how bad they were). The injectors were out at the time, i would have had the decarb fluid going in the injector ports, not sure if that was a good idea and caused some contamination or damage.
E) Change engine oil and filter.






PS: After posting this i ran the scan again and the P0087 Code: Fuel Rail/System Pressure Too Low disappeared on it's own overnight.
But still won't start.and no codes or dashboard warning lights.

[Citroënbender]

Will it start, then run on a puff of ether or a splash of petrol?

(Not something you should do often!)

At this point verify the timing as well, I think the diesel is as for the PSA 2 litre petrol and has a flywheel pinning hole to its rear. Be careful not to wind the motor backwards if you miss the timing point - go around twice more.