Advice on Infringement Notice

[cowboy]

Here's what happened.

I attended the Deniliquin ute muster last weekend in the old XD. After I arrived I backed into a parking spot in the paddock and a few guys heard the idle on the old girl and called out to give it a rev. I gave it a few revs for maybe 5 to 10 seconds. Next thing a police officer appears at my window and books me for "start/drive vehicle causing unecessary noise/smoke". $243 and 3 points. I would point out here thet the vehicle was stationary, I was not spinning the wheels or anything and the XD does NOT blow smoke.

Now I would cop this on the chin if I had been is a carpark somewhere or a suburban street but this was in a paddock at a festival started to celebrate the V8 ute. I observed probably 50 or 60 other utes do the same thing and much worse over the weekend, at times within sight of police officers and not get done.

I am going to write a letter and appeal this infringement, probably have no chance but I have to try. Any advice for what I should include?

[ch33z1l]

I got no advice mate, but damn that is rough! To create excess noise over those concert speakers that the Living End would be playing over, the XD must go alright!

[Busted]

A photo of the ute showing that it was off the street.
Get a rego inspection done and attach it to show that the vehicle is in a raodworthy con ie not to loud. (delete the inspection stations name from the form the last thing you need is for your inspection station to get an ordit).

[jaydee]

Try and look up the regulation/section and see if it says it has to be on a road or an are open to and used by the public.

[geckoGT]

It does not have to be a on a public road, they could do you in your driveway if the neighbours complain. Having said that, the situation you got done sucks, getting done at a ute show?

I would fight it as I feel the magistrate would be against the use of these laws against people at automotive events that are sanctioned by the police and carry the correct liability insurance etc. If it was a carpark etc fair cop but not at a ute show/concert, would look brilliant in the news paper, certainly some negative publicity for the police.
Next time, don't go to an organised motoring enthusiasts event designed to prevent antisocial motoring behaviour from happening on the street, just do burn outs in the local shopping centre car park, same fine (before you all tell me off, that is sarcasm).

[FPV GT40]

....sounds a bit rough getting a fine, that would be like getting a street racing fine at the drags....

Not sure how you would fight it but I would certainly not be happy.

[snappy]

Thats a joke i wish i had some advice for you . Good luck

[Evil Roy]

Let us know how you get on.

[Ozfords]

Originally Posted by Busted

(the last thing you need is for your inspection station to get an ordit).

Yes, the last thing they need is an ordit. It's about as bad as having your tax return orditted, or those annoying stationary ordits at work.

Dem pesky ordits.

[ebxr8240]

Rep yourself in court with all the paperwork..
Some times I think writting in gives them info to
present their case against you...

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Ozfords

Yes, the last thing they need is an ordit. It's about as bad as having your tax return orditted, or those annoying stationary ordits at work.

Dem pesky ordits.

For a start, it is an audit (not ordit).

Secondly, no inspection station should have an issue with an audit or you using their inspection in legal matters, not if they are oing the job properly.

Somehow I doubt the car will pass exhaust noise testing so the whole testing idea is not a good plan. Taking into account that it occured at a closed automotive event, I do not think it will be necessary in order to get a magistrate to rule against the infringement. Like trying to dish out the same infringement in pit lane at bathurst

[Flaming Mo]

I'm not familiar with NSW legislation so I did a bit of a search. It would appear that while no doubt you were perhaps nabbed by an over zealous officer, technically it would appear that your actions constitute an offence.

In Section 11 of NSW Road Rules 2008, it states that the rules apply to vehicles and road users on roads and road related areas.
Section 13 provides for a definition of "road related area" which includes;
Subsection (d) - an area that is not a road and that is open to the public for driving, riding or parking vehicles.

You could however possibly use the location and nature of the concert / meeting as a way of requesting a review of the infringement notice. I would perhaps argue that the spirit of this legislation was intended to protect the peace and tranquility of suburban streets and neighbourhoods - not necessarily outdoor motor shows and rock concerts.

It may not change the outcome but may be worth a try.

[Supercharged]

Originally Posted by Flaming Mo

I'm not familiar with NSW legislation so I did a bit of a search. It would appear that while no doubt you were perhaps nabbed by an over zealous officer, technically it would appear that your actions constitute an offence.

In Section 11 of NSW Road Rules 2008, it states that the rules apply to vehicles and road users on roads and road related areas.
Section 13 provides for a definition of "road related area" which includes;
Subsection (d) - an area that is not a road and that is open to the public for driving, riding or parking vehicles.

You could however possibly use the location and nature of the concert / meeting as a way of requesting a review of the infringement notice. I would perhaps argue that the spirit of this legislation was intended to protect the peace and tranquility of suburban streets and neighbourhoods - not necessarily outdoor motor shows and rock concerts.

It may not change the outcome but may be worth a try.

Almost correct, a public open space (except the public road it’s self) is a Service Station driveway or a supermarket car park or similar, an area open to the public but still private land.
An area that is open to the public but has a gate or similar that is closed at least once a year is not a Public Open Space as such. Making excessive noise in a non-public open space doesn’t come under the traffic act and you cannot be fined under that law.
5 years ago I went to work in a blue uniform for 10 years

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by FG Turbo Ute

Almost correct, a public open space (except the public road it’s self) is a Service Station driveway or a supermarket car park or similar, an area open to the public but still private land.
An area that is open to the public but has a gate or similar that is closed at least once a year is not a Public Open Space as such. Making excessive noise in a non-public open space doesn’t come under the traffic act and you cannot be fined under that law.
5 years ago I went to work in a blue uniform for 10 years

So am I correct to interpret this post as the law of operation of a vehicle in a manner that produces excessive noise/smoke does not apply in the case of a ute muster if it is on grounds that are not public open space?

[Supercharged]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

So am I correct to interpret this post as the law of operation of a vehicle in a manner that produces excessive noise/smoke does not apply in the case of a ute muster if it is on grounds that are not public open space?

Correct, it cannot be applied as an offence as part of the road rules as it wasn't on a Public road or public open space, by the way, drink driving applies even on private land as that is termed a criminal offence.

[Supercharged]

Think about it this way, if the Traffic Laws applied on private land (not being a public open space) you could be done for speeding on a race track. If he writes off to the commisioner it would be withdrawn as it is a bluff by the officer. Only the owner of the land or the person who leased it could take action and that would require a court case and at best would be a fine, can't have points awarded.

[gros20]

i don't know i fteh show was a local show for u. but i would write a letter to the paper no doubt witha bit of luck it will get in the paper and they will drop the fine.

I did this when me and my then partner went shoping to get odd and ends and amgainst it boughta box of condoms and was refused service at the counter cause we had soem condoms in the trolly.
any way paper picke up story then ity just snow balled and after taht wollies was very apolgtic. Even today tonight called up want teh story :p

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

For a start, it is an audit (not ordit).

Secondly, no inspection station should have an issue with an audit or you using their inspection in legal matters, not if they are oing the job properly.

Obviously sarcasm was never your strong point

[Ridin-High]

If you haven't had a fine for awhile or ever, might be an idea to make a written appeal

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Ozfords

Yes, the last thing they need is an ordit. It's about as bad as having your tax return orditted, or those annoying stationary ordits at work.

Dem pesky ordits.

Bawhahahahahahahahahahahaha, you made my day.

[Matty4]

Originally Posted by gros20

i don't know i fteh show was a local show for u. but i would write a letter to the paper no doubt witha bit of luck it will get in the paper and they will drop the fine.

I did this when me and my then partner went shoping to get odd and ends and amgainst it boughta box of condoms and was refused service at the counter cause we had soem condoms in the trolly.
any way paper picke up story then ity just snow balled and after taht wollies was very apolgtic. Even today tonight called up want teh story :p

:

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Matty4

:

Complete gobbledigook. Someone get a translator and fast.

Most unintelligable post of the year perhaps?

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by gros20

i don't know i fteh show was a local show for u. but i would write a letter to the paper no doubt witha bit of luck it will get in the paper and they will drop the fine.

I did this when me and my then partner went shoping to get odd and ends and amgainst it boughta box of condoms and was refused service at the counter cause we had soem condoms in the trolly.
any way paper picke up story then ity just snow balled and after taht wollies was very apolgtic. Even today tonight called up want teh story :p

:

I think I've got it deciphered but that just raises more questions, apart from the most obvious one being... what relevance does it have to an infringement notice for noise?!

However, you went to a shop - bought some stuff including condoms and they didn't want to serve you because you attempted to buy condoms from them?

What's missing from this story that inspired a newspaper article and Today Tonight wanting to run it...?

[xdclevo]

Originally Posted by Rodp

What's missing from this story that inspired a newspaper article and Today Tonight wanting to run it...?

Mushy season for sure

[Flaming Mo]

Originally Posted by FG Turbo Ute

Almost correct, a public open space (except the public road it’s self) is a Service Station driveway or a supermarket car park or similar, an area open to the public but still private land.
An area that is open to the public but has a gate or similar that is closed at least once a year is not a Public Open Space as such. Making excessive noise in a non-public open space doesn’t come under the traffic act and you cannot be fined under that law.
5 years ago I went to work in a blue uniform for 10 years

Not saying you are incorrect, as no doubt you have had much experience in this area, but I could not find the term "public open space" in the current NSW Road Rules 2008 legislation under which the "unnecessary noise" offence falls.

There may well be case law that supports your gate assertion, however I have seen many shopping centre carparks, service stations and schools that have gates attached which are closed after hours, public holidays, Sundays etc. Your local Bunnings Warehouse carpark will most likely have one. I would be astounded to learn that the mere presence of a gate which gets used at sporadic intervals throughout the year would make these areas immune to state legislation. Would this also make the streets of security gated residential communities immune from traffic regulations.

Obviously a racetrack itself would not be subject to traffic regulations as unlike the ute muster carpark, the racetrack is not used and enjoyed by the general public, therfor not fitting the definition of "road related area".

The law is no doubt a grey area and this case may just come down to legal argument as to whether the ute muster carpark constitutes a "road related area". May be it does, maybe it doesn't. For the communities own protection, governments can have a tendency to have some form of legislation to cover private land that is used and enjoyed by the general public even in a temporary manner. Although I have never been, I would assume the Mt Panorama would not be a lawless free for all, even though much of it is probably on private land, but as I've said, I've never been.

My advice to the thread starter - write your letter. If all is above board, the ticket will proceed. If the evidence is not up to scratch, it will no doubt be withdrawn. Either that or seek some professional legal advice if you have the coin.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by Flaming Mo

Not saying you are incorrect, as no doubt you have had much experience in this area, but I could not find the term "public open space" in the current NSW Road Rules 2008 legislation under which the "unnecessary noise" offence falls.

There may well be case law that supports your gate assertion, however I have seen many shopping centre carparks, service stations and schools that have gates attached which are closed after hours, public holidays, Sundays etc. Your local Bunnings Warehouse carpark will most likely have one. I would be astounded to learn that the mere presence of a gate which gets used at sporadic intervals throughout the year would make these areas immune to state legislation. Would this also make the streets of security gated residential communities immune from traffic regulations.

Obviously a racetrack itself would not be subject to traffic regulations as unlike the ute muster carpark, the racetrack is not used and enjoyed by the general public, therfor not fitting the definition of "road related area".

The law is no doubt a grey area and this case may just come down to legal argument as to whether the ute muster carpark constitutes a "road related area". May be it does, maybe it doesn't. For the communities own protection, governments can have a tendency to have some form of legislation to cover private land that is used and enjoyed by the general public even in a temporary manner. Although I have never been, I would assume the Mt Panorama would not be a lawless free for all, even though much of it is probably on private land, but as I've said, I've never been.

My advice to the thread starter - write your letter. If all is above board, the ticket will proceed. If the evidence is not up to scratch, it will no doubt be withdrawn. Either that or seek some professional legal advice if you have the coin.

Mt Panorama is not a good example as it is all public road, the park up at the top of he mountain are public parks and the camping area is public grounds.

It is an option on all traffic infringements to elect to challenge the fine in court, no point writing letters as the answer will be to challenge the fine in the courts.

I still think that when a magistrate hears the conditions of the location of the offence, he will determine that no fine is to be paid. I would not be surprised to see the police cancel the fine when they are notified that it will be challenged. I am sure the higher ranking police officers will see that it is the result of an over zealous officer and unlikely to get far in front of a magistrate. The magistrate will assess the situation considering the spirit of the law, the environment in which the offence occured and the potential public opinion of his determination. The police officers that present these offences know the magistrates and what is prosecutable and what is not in front of the magistrate.

[joolz]

Im a bit confused here! So he booked you for excessive noise and he determined that from a distance? So if it was that excessive over the concert and other cars it must have been pretty loud and so why didnt he also put a canary on your car as the noise must have been that excessive it would also include sound pollution (EPA). It appears to me to be a flawed punishment from a police officer that has nothing better to do.

[Flaming Mo]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Mt Panorama is not a good example as it is all public road, the park up at the top of he mountain are public parks and the camping area is public grounds.

It is an option on all traffic infringements to elect to challenge the fine in court, no point writing letters as the answer will be to challenge the fine in the courts.

I still think that when a magistrate hears the conditions of the location of the offence, he will determine that no fine is to be paid. I would not be surprised to see the police cancel the fine when they are notified that it will be challenged. I am sure the higher ranking police officers will see that it is the result of an over zealous officer and unlikely to get far in front of a magistrate. The magistrate will assess the situation considering the spirit of the law, the environment in which the offence occured and the potential public opinion of his determination. The police officers that present these offences know the magistrates and what is prosecutable and what is not in front of the magistrate.

Point taken on Mt Panorama. I wasn't sure of the set up down there. I agree with you on the issue that the location and nature of the infringement (merely reving of the engine) did not call for such a result & penalty.

My point remains however, that if the police choose to dig their heels in on the matter, the letter of the law may very well be on their side.

Take another scenario if you will. Take the Gold Coast theme parks for example, or your local tourist attraction or local private school with a carpark on private land. Many of their carparks will have gates attached which are used after hours or at different times of the year. I figure, if I turned up when the carparks were full during the day and began doing some heavy circle work with people watching on, I would be fair game for a ticket by virtue of the definition of "road related area". In fact, I would be flabergasted if I could legally do it.

My point being, is there any difference with respect to legal definitions for the ute muster carpark. It is also private land, used as a carpark for the public (although temporary). I'm not claiming to have the answer, I'm just making the point that although the infringement was petty and unnecessary, it may well be legally sound.

[Supercharged]

The officer should have booked him under creating a public nuisance or similar, by booking under the Australian Road Rules he made a mistake or a bluff as it is not a Road Related Area or Public Open Space and there for not enforceable.
Write your letter as I doubt they will withdraw it unless you complain, it will not stand up in Court.
He was booked under the wrong act.

[Flaming Mo]

[B]13 What is a road related area
(1) A road related area is any of the following:
(a) an area that divides a road,
(b) a footpath or nature strip adjacent to a road
(c) an area that is not a road and that is open to the public and designated for use by cyclists or animals,
(d) an area that is not a road and that is open to or used by the public for driving, riding or parking vehicles.[B]

By simply reading the legislation, one could determine that the ute muster carpark satisfies the definition of "road related area" under section (d), which would perhaps be the criteria used by the officer who issued the ticket.

I think what FG Turbo Ute is saying (which may very lilkely be correct), is that the area in quetion, whether private or not, must be primarily developed for, or have as one of its main uses, the parking or use of vehicles for the public, which would not be the case with a paddock or oval. Would this be correct FG Turbo Ute?