Very Worrying!!!

Cuey · 24-01-2007, 06:14 PM

More updated info on whats going on with FPV

I realise that this should be in the FPR Retrenchments thread, but i felt that it was too important and should be given it's own space

http://www.carpoint.com.au/car-review/2316185.aspx

I'm extremely concerned!

4.9 EF Futura · 24-01-2007, 06:39 PM

Quote:

State facts

State facts

> draw big conclusion that may join the facts

Appears to be carpoint's order of the day. Having said this, they do raise some interesting points.

Kryton · 24-01-2007, 06:57 PM

ive said from the start that releasing the Orion 18 months later was a bad move.
at the very least though, FPV have got the Orion GT ready to go, its just a matter of waiting.

P6LTD351 · 24-01-2007, 07:08 PM

Ford are always playing catchup! They knew the VE would be released in '06 ages ago. They should've done anything to fast track Orion. I can understand the car being released maybe a couple of months after the VE but 18 months - 2 years is UNACCEPTABLE!!! WTF is going on at Ford. It just looks like they don't care. The car hasn't changed as a series since 1998 (and even then it was a year late). Please don't say that the BA - BF is a different body than the AU. The BF is an evolution of the AU just as the VZ is an evolution of the VT. They couldn't even change the rear of the BFII to make it look different!! 5 years of the same light design. That's unprecedented!!! Even a new design within the same housing would've worked. Damn, FPVs have the same rear lights as an XT!! Please put my faith back in Ford. HELP!!! I don't want anyone justifying Ford's actions. I'm blue blooded but ever since I have sunk thousands into my cars I feel I have a right to constructive criticism.

FPV8U · 24-01-2007, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Before Prodrive can match E-series investment in the next generation of FPV models, CarPoint understands that Prodrive will need to carry the additional investment in sourcing or developing a V8 engine that will not only take the battle to the HSV range but outrun Holden's mainstream VE SS range which currently outperforms FPV's V8 models.

These comments seriously P!$$ me off as a Boss owner, not only has my Boss shown a few LS1's a thing or two, it's not far off the pace of a VZ or VE 6.0L.

And if any of you have driven a Boss with Full Bolt on's and a tune know the potential to be had, all Prodrive need to do is stop sitting on their hands and get working...

Outbackjack · 24-01-2007, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eb2monty

Ford are always playing catchup! They knew the VE would be released in '06 ages ago. They should've done anything to fast track Orion. I can understand the car being released maybe a couple of months after the VE but 18 months - 2 years is UNACCEPTABLE!!! WTF is going on at Ford. It just looks like they don't care. The car hasn't changed as a series since 1998 (and even then it was a year late). Please don't say that the BA - BF is a different body than the AU. The BF is an evolution of the AU just as the VZ is an evolution of the VT. They couldn't even change the rear of the BFII to make it look different!! 5 years of the same light design. That's unprecedented!!! Even a new design within the same housing would've worked. Damn, FPVs have the same rear lights as an XT!! Please put my faith back in Ford. HELP!!! I don't want anyone justifying Ford's actions. I'm blue blooded but ever since I have sunk thousands into my cars I feel I have a right to constructive criticism.

I aggree with what you have said except the "Ford are always playing catch up" It has taken holden 4 years to catch up to the BF. And many are saying that it is not all that far better than the BF. I have driven both, and I prefer the BF. Thankfully I like the looks of the BF as well. It looks confortable in the muscle car mould. The VE looks like a wanna be muscle car. JMO.

Outbackjack · 24-01-2007, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV8U

These comments seriously P!$$ me off as a Boss owner, not only has my Boss shown a few LS1's a thing or two, it's not far off the pace of a VZ or VE 6.0L.

And if any of you have driven a Boss with Full Bolt on's and a tune know the potential to be had, all Prodrive need to do is stop sitting on their hands and get working...

I aggree. I have had flat out runs with a auto VE SS. My BF is a manual and I reeled him in with out too much effort. He pulled away after my computer said, "no faster bucko". In about a year or so, after I am at least half way through my warranty, I am planning a blower installation as per one of this sites sponsors. God bless the bulge!!

flappist · 24-01-2007, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eb2monty

5 years of the same light design. That's unprecedented!!!

Well apart from XD-XF 1979-1987 or EA-EB2 1988-1993.

nb_351 · 24-01-2007, 07:53 PM

what about the x series ute? startedfrom xd through to xh... would that be about 97? or was there no el equivalent ute? correct me if ia m wrong though... but thats almost 20 yearsfrom the same basic design, especially the rear end...

The Stylist · 24-01-2007, 08:31 PM

I thought the 18 month wait until Orion was myth?

GXL078 · 24-01-2007, 09:32 PM

That's the way Poms do business, quite ruthless really.

Green X · 24-01-2007, 09:46 PM

“Boss engine viability was always a financial time bomb for Prodrive as it is fundamental to FPV's survival but not Ford's.”

Way don’t they just stop pulling there dicks in the Office for 2 minutes, take a walk into the workshop, and stick a Bolt on or 2 onto the Boss then lightly Flash tune the **** and have the GT pumping out a very relaxed 315- 320Kw at the fly, wile giving HSV :thebirds: Down the ¼ mile.

As unchanged power seems to be everybody’s gripe with the ford V8’s and FPV this should shut em up it till 2008 don’t you think.

2008 who needs a new engine, just bout on the Yalla Terra Twin screw, no development coasts as the aftermarket mobs have all ready done it all for them.

DODDO · 24-01-2007, 10:06 PM

Although its unlikely, i hope that Ford doesnt drop the V8 from its range of Falcons and Falcon based models like they did in the XF to EA series. If they did that, it would be fair in saying that Ford would cease manufacturing the Falcon in AUS as there would be very small sales in there product. Dont get me wrong, the turbo 6 is a fantastic engine, but its not a V8.

P6LTD351 · 24-01-2007, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Well apart from XD-XF 1979-1987 or EA-EB2 1988-1993.

Um...Both of these series had different lights! You're telling me the XF taillights are the same as an XD? Don't think so. EB same as EA? Don't think so. BA - BF are the same design and look. You can only tell them apart if you are a diehard ford fan. (The BF brakelights have more of a sparkle to them). Other than this they are the same.

P6LTD351 · 24-01-2007, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

I aggree with what you have said except the "Ford are always playing catch up" It has taken holden 4 years to catch up to the BF. And many are saying that it is not all that far better than the BF. I have driven both, and I prefer the BF. Thankfully I like the looks of the BF as well. It looks confortable in the muscle car mould. The VE looks like a wanna be muscle car. JMO.

Sorry, I meant the
look of the car, not the mechanicals. Yes the Falcon has been more advanced mechanically for the past few years. However, people buy primarily on looks. The general public see the VE as being ahead of the BFII because it is in terms of a new body shape. The AU was a better car than the VT (mechanically). People didn't care about that.

Kryton · 24-01-2007, 10:46 PM

maybe off topic but anyway.
why didnt Ford include any V8 badges on the BA-BF range?
i was looking for a BA a few months ago and wanted a V8. it would have been a lot easier to go straight to the cars with a V8 badge on them instead of looking at every single car only to find out it was a 6.
(i ended up with a 6 anyway)
little gripe, but never the less why not advertise what Ford has to offer?
(talking about non XR/GT models here).

HSE2 · 24-01-2007, 10:50 PM

It’s an interesting article. Not sure it is completely correct.

Yes the on going cost of building engines can’t be sustained in the environment we have today. We have been saying that for some time. It’s a situation that can’t continue but not one that will be solved by these sackings. When there is no choice what is one to do but the cost is a huge drain on the overall product that simply can’t continue.

The question is, have and are the people that have been let go directly responsible for the product direction and content we have today?

What is interesting is the assumption on cost. I would have thought that the majority of the upgrades given to FPV would have been at Fords hand to a fair extent.

Specialty calibrations notwithstanding the rest of the changes have been basically cosmetic. From 2003 FPV have been in cost cutting mode and at some point that is going to hurt. The cost of lifting your own game to the competition is elaborate once that situation continues for an extended period and I think this might have something to do with what has gone on here.

The man responsible for the force range- gone. The man that claimed FPV was relying on the Fords base line to lift standing is gone also.

No matter how low the cookie jar is if you fully understand branding you don’t introduce a new line of premium product with carry over wheels as an example. It’s the small items the small issues that have added up to create one giant headache that all but the blindly loyal can see.

Ford should be concerned. The action that was taken on Friday is unacceptable in a joint partnership. From day one the question was being asked, “what does Prodrive bring to the party?” “When will we see Prodrive content in our product?” “Why are obvious and very public short comings with internal element not improved?”

On more then one accession the comments by Flint of this forum sounded like the product was being neutered by circumstance beyond his control.

I find it hard to believe that the people that have been let go are chiefly responsible. Somewhere someone has been saying yes or no to product content and direction. In a joint partnership that involves a manufacturer and where that manufacturers badge is the reason for direct promotion I would think the buck stops with them. Has Ford made a complaint?

The fact this has happened weeks before the FPV family day is odd timing. What is so pressing that the action was seen as immediate and what could possible be so damaging that Brian Meyers couldn’t have had influence over direction with the current management structure.

In confidential correspondence it is claimed that these changes having been implemented to “bring FPV closer to its dealers, reduce its cost base and increase efficiency”

Yet there is a strong sense of product vengeance aimed in the retrenchments. Joe correctly has looked at the product, while the noise out of FPV spin doctoring has centered on increased sales support.
In the mean while Ford has been severely embarrassed by these turn of events and to a degree have entered damage control. Blind leading the blind. I think its fair to say that FPV have under delivered against their product claims of 4 years and looking at the segment there seems to be untapped potential. Although record sales there is strong evidence to say FPV have left plenty in the tank.

This isn’t an alignment that is in Ford best interests. The brand that stands above all wearing the blue oval can’t be structured by an organization that has its hands in so many counter enterprises. At any point in the last 5 year Prodrive could have implemented any of its technological elements into the FPV product. Ford doesn’t need a partner that is penny pinching at the cost of core brand identity and content. Ford has a monopoly in that regard already.

HSV boldly made the prediction that E series would kill FPV. Most people laughed. The comment wasn’t about being arrogant and it wasn’t about the sale race. It was simply the observation that FPV have taken a very good base package from Ford and really done nothing with it. That was the old HSV way and even with the advantage of a crate engine the investment in HSV product development was something like 2 to 1. The comment was based on the observation that if FPV cant invest in improvement of its product in the last four years how are they going to justify the millions to chase down the E series. I suspect that person had no idea that the impact would be so soon and so public but while I don’t support all the observations and foundations presented, there is certainly reasons for HSV being rather smug right about now.

Outbackjack · 24-01-2007, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eb2monty

Sorry, I meant the
look of the car, not the mechanicals. Yes the Falcon has been more advanced mechanically for the past few years. However, people buy primarily on looks. The general public see the VE as being ahead of the BFII because it is in terms of a new body shape. The AU was a better car than the VT (mechanically). People didn't care about that.

I see what you mean..... But to my eye, the VE is just plain ugly. It seems to be trying too hard to look like a muscle car. As someone said earlier, it looks like a honda that has OD'ed on steroids. They might be just as nice to drive as the BF (the judge is out on that anyway) but they have lost the looks war, IMHO.

:

P6LTD351 · 24-01-2007, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davway

maybe off topic but anyway.
why didnt Ford include any V8 badges on the BA-BF range?
i was looking for a BA a few months ago and wanted a V8. it would have been a lot easier to go straight to the cars with a V8 badge on them instead of looking at every single car only to find out it was a 6.
(i ended up with a 6 anyway)
little gripe, but never the less why not advertise what Ford has to offer?
(talking about non XR/GT models here).

I agree. I'd love to work for Ford and be in charge of things like that. It's these little attention to details that I feel Ford don't pay enough attention to. That and my little gripe as to the UNCHANGED taillights of the BFII. The front looks killer. Another gripe. I think XT headlights look better than those crappy silver backed lights of the futura and fairmont. The Ghia has the same cool lights of the XT. Seems like they're going up and down. Hope that made sense

P6LTD351 · 24-01-2007, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

I see what you mean..... But to my eye, the VE is just plain ugly. It seems to be trying too hard to look like a muscle car. As someone said earlier, it looks like a honda that has OD'ed on steroids. They might be just as nice to drive as the BF (the judge is out on that anyway) but they have lost the looks war, IMHO.

:

I accept that comment

jimt3te50 · 24-01-2007, 11:00 PM

that seemed like a very logical, well researched article to me and makes some very good points and raises some very real concerns.........

gtfpv · 25-01-2007, 12:25 AM

it's what we have been saying here on the forums for a very long time . but behind the scenes it's obvious FORD hasn't been playing fair with the v8 engine ,they have been holding it back and improving the 6. the boss 290 has been copping flack from its sibling 260. which fpv simply dont want to wear anymore it has bled them dry . a lot of politics have gone on here with marketing as well, obviously FPV SUCCEEDED IN getting th 6 into serious mode . but the base 260 ( SS's rival ) which is the gateway to 290 and 297 engines has been left to cop criticsm and die a slow death . i'm really ****ed off with ford for haveing such lame vision with V8 performance and holding FPV back.

needaXYGT · 25-01-2007, 01:08 AM

great thread, alot of things i was unaware of

pHaT`eL · 25-01-2007, 03:14 AM

Ford has a habit of running late with models. Im pretty sure there wasnt meant to be an EL model, as the AU was meant to be ready to run against the VT.
Also heard the AU2 was meant to be the original AU.

Lukeyson · 25-01-2007, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pHaT`eL

Also heard the AU2 was meant to be the original AU.

The AU days would have been totally different if thats what they started with !

banarcus · 25-01-2007, 10:57 AM

A game of wait and see.

Powdered Toast Man · 25-01-2007, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davway

maybe off topic but anyway.
why didnt Ford include any V8 badges on the BA-BF range?
i was looking for a BA a few months ago and wanted a V8. it would have been a lot easier to go straight to the cars with a V8 badge on them instead of looking at every single car only to find out it was a 6.
(i ended up with a 6 anyway)
little gripe, but never the less why not advertise what Ford has to offer?
(talking about non XR/GT models here).

Uh they did. Just look at my avatar, its the V8 badge on the front guard of my BA XT, and yes it is factory. Fairmonts have them as well as the non XR ute range. Obviously you didnt come across any V8 models in your travels.

Cuey · 25-01-2007, 01:40 PM

Where to from here through

What are the answers??? More Power, More KW's More Torque

What direction does Ford, FPV and Prodrive need to take to ensure that Orion kicks ***?

The article states that Orion is already complete. Surely not 18months out though

Dave_au · 25-01-2007, 02:10 PM

We should be seeing mules of the Orion on the road by now. Why havent we?

WASP · 25-01-2007, 04:02 PM

On the more positive side, at least we know their will be a 40th anniversary limited edition GT:Reverend: