Digital Millennium Copyright Act - danger for aftermarket engine tuners

[Syndrome]

I just recently heard GM, Ford and Chrysler have signed up to this act:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digita..._Copyright_Act

Do people realise that this act makes it illegal to modify OEM software and breaches could result in fines and gaol time? In other words, the act makes it illegal to modify the factory EMS software if you want to obtain more power from your engine.

[Raptor]

I haven't read the full link but this really bothers me.

I want car manufacturers to design, build and market the car. Once I choose to buy it and have payed my money what I then do with it is none of their bloody business.

Sure, if I expect them to honour warranty during that period then I respect that mods need to be kept to minimum, and beyond that to remain road worthy (legal) certain standards have to be maintained but the manufacturer has nothing to do with that.





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[ivorya]

It's an interesting issue but the question remains.....

Who owns the product after you buy it??

[Trump]

Originally Posted by ivorya

It's an interesting issue but the question remains.....

Who owns the product after you buy it??

There is a train of thought that posits that the purchase price is essentially a bond and yearly rego is the rental fee... think about why govco is able to get away with impounding cars and not be guilty of theft of a motor vehicle...

[XByoot]

Yeah, i guess they are concerned about product image. Imagine if tuners reprogram a DBW system or fit aftermarket pedals and there is a problem with interface with the management system and it causes major accident or fatality..... it's the manufacturers name in the paper,ABS systems or traction controls modified as a by product of fooling a system,stuff can go into limp modes and still cheat warning lights,all sorts of possibilities that I'm sure the manufacturers see and get accused for making unsafe cars etc etc......but on the flip side it's the owner car of course. Personally,I get zero mods till out of warranty,then it's your to do as you wish,or void warranty if you mod before hand. I think Ford got wind of guys spraying Mustangs and fronting up with torched pistons to claim warranty,don't blame them for being onto it...this is of course taking it to another level.

[GO FURTHER]

Originally Posted by ivorya

It's an interesting issue but the question remains.....

Who owns the product after you buy it??

The purchaser owns the product but not the copyright / patent on the product purchased.

So lets say you buy a music CD.... You own the physical CD disc, and the songs are licenced to you to listen to in private forever, but you don't actually own the rights to the copyrighted songs
themselves.... Nor of course the copyrights or patents on the physical CD disc itself.

[Sioso]

Even if this does come in there will be a least 1 or 2 manufacturers who won't sign it and they will pick up all the sales from the tuning crowd.
I sure as hell wouldn't touch a vehicle that stopped me from tinkering with it.

[arronm]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

I just recently heard GM, Ford and Chrysler have signed up to this act:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digita..._Copyright_Act

Do people realise that this act makes it illegal to modify OEM software and breaches could result in fines and gaol time? In other words, the act makes it illegal to modify the factory EMS software if you want to obtain more power from your engine.

It's only illegal when and if you get caught....

[XR6Runner]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

I just recently heard GM, Ford and Chrysler have signed up to this act:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digita..._Copyright_Act

Do people realise that this act makes it illegal to modify OEM software and breaches could result in fines and gaol time? In other words, the act makes it illegal to modify the factory EMS software if you want to obtain more power from your engine.

Nothing to be worries about, agree with the above post. How is the government going to find out you modified your tune?

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by BAXRSIX

The purchaser owns the product but not the copyright / patent on the product purchased.

So lets say you buy a music CD.... You own the physical CD disc, and the songs are licenced to you to listen to in private forever, but you don't actually own the rights to the copyrighted songs
themselves.... Nor of course the copyrights or patents on the physical CD disc itself.

This is where the law is hazy.
You own the physical disc so you also have the right to copy this disc, not to damage the original.

I remember years ago Apple suggesting this to the Federal court regarding people JailBreaking their iphones.
Apple locked their phones for 'Modifying their systems/patents', it was thrown out, apple ordered to fix and pay compensation.

This is going to get very messy in a court system that can't handle the load now!

[XByoot]

Originally Posted by arronm

It's only illegal when and if you get caught....

Very true, my only worry would be if there was an accident, even if unrelated to mods the insurance companies would have an out if it was deemed to have illegal mods,
if there's a way for them to avoid a pay out they'll find it. Leaves the owner holding the baby and wearing the brunt of the whole deal.

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by arronm

It's only illegal when and if you get caught....

..... in the USA....

D

[Tassie f100]

Originally Posted by XByoot

Very true, my only worry would be if there was an accident, even if unrelated to mods the insurance companies would have an out if it was deemed to have illegal mods,
if there's a way for them to avoid a pay out they'll find it. Leaves the owner holding the baby and wearing the brunt of the whole deal.

That's not quite right.If the Insurance company can PROVE that the modification contributed to the crash,then and only then can they deny the claim

[XByoot]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

That's not quite right.If the Insurance company can PROVE that the modification contributed to the crash,then and only then can they deny the claim

Fair enough I guess,and it makes good sense....but if the car is proven to have been modified illegally in any way then it would be deemed unroadworthy and shouldn't have been on the road ,therefore it wouldn't have been in an accident in the first place. Perhaps it will then become the owners job to prove the mods are indeed legal ,which they are likely unable to do in these cases.... I'm certainly no lawyer,but I assumed that would be their angle to get out of it....but your probably quite correct.
With electronics it could be a huge minefield,ie a certain software mod for a tune sends a limp mode or fault signal,the tuner then disables the warning leaving the fault,possibly rendering a safety related sub system compromised,it would be very hard to stand up in court and argue that is not the case against the people who actually designed the systems.....It's certainly an interesting topic,it would be interesting to see different countries legal angles on such issues too,ie the US..but like I say,no lawyer here! Cheers.

[arronm]

Originally Posted by Gothefalcon

..... in the USA....

D

There isn't any proof until you get caught. And with no proof you haven't done anything wrong

[dead_man00124]

currently this only applies to the US

in Aus as shown with iPhone's etc our copyright laws are a bit different in that regard

[Nikked]

Isn't it already illegal to alter the ECU if it effects the EPA standards anyway...

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Isn't it already illegal to alter the ECU if it effects the EPA standards anyway...

Yes it ask. Just ask Volkswagen.

[ivorya]

I think we may be lucky here as the TTP has been shelved.
This was one of the policy's pushed into the TTP.

[HI PSI]

Just another reason that justifies my Haltech.

[GO FURTHER]

If it is indeed illegal to alter the car software, such as getting your car tuned... The question is... Who gets in trouble?

Is it the tuning house that does the tune on your car or you as the owner of the vehicle?

[simon varley]

there's a lot of proprietary software on a PCM. If you are going to keep using 99% of that, and just modify the torque curve, them I think the OEMs have a right to get upset. If you released a song where you have only changed 1% of the notes you'd expect to pay the originator wouldn't you? what's the difference if the OEM effectively copyrights the car software?

[ratter]

Originally Posted by BAXRSIX

If it is indeed illegal to alter the car software, such as getting your car tuned... The question is... Who gets in trouble?

Is it the tuning house that does the tune on your car or you as the owner of the vehicle?

At the moment, it onus is on the owner to ensure their car meets emission and rwc specifications.

[DMXR6T]

Copyright means that you cannot copy without permission. In the case of tuning, the software is not copied, it is modified.

[NX74205]

Originally Posted by ivorya

This is where the law is hazy.
You own the physical disc so you also have the right to copy this disc, not to damage the original.

It's not hazy at all, the law is very clear as to what you can and cannot do in relation to copying a music CD. Section 109A of the Copyright Act states that you can make copies of sound recordings if:

1. You own the original, non-infringing copy,
2. The copy made is for private and personal use,
3. The copy is made to a device (or disk) that you own,
4. The copy is not made from an infringing copy (e.g., downloaded illegally), and
5. Once copied, the original copy must not be sold/let for hire/distributed/otherwise traded.

It is not an infringement of copyright to copy music CDs onto a USB/SD card for instance so you can listen to it in your car.

Originally Posted by DMXR6T

Copyright means that you cannot copy without permission. In the case of tuning, the software is not copied, it is modified.

No. Copyright includes the right to modify and adapt the original work. Making an adaptation of an original work without consent of the copyright owner is an infringement of copyright.

[GO FURTHER]

Originally Posted by DMXR6T

Copyright means that you cannot copy without permission. In the case of tuning, the software is not copied, it is modified.

Yes, but you also cannot take a copyrighted song, modify a few notes and bars and resell it either.

This is the same as a tuning house modifying the original copyrighted software in the ECU and then reselling it on to the customer. The tuner has also broken the law.

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by NX74205

It's not hazy at all, the law is very clear as to what you can and cannot do in relation to copying a music CD. Section 109A of the Copyright Act states that you can make copies of sound recordings if:

1. You own the original, non-infringing copy,
2. The copy made is for private and personal use,
3. The copy is made to a device (or disk) that you own,
4. The copy is not made from an infringing copy (e.g., downloaded illegally), and
5. Once copied, the original copy must not be sold/let for hire/distributed/otherwise traded.

It is not an infringement of copyright to copy music CDs onto a USB/SD card for instance so you can listen to it in your car.

By Hazy, I mean, if we all had signed up to the TPP, all of these provisions will be removed meaning you cannot do anything other than listen to the original. If it gets scratched, go buy another.

BTW, when you copy an original, onto a disc/usb surely the software is illegal for circumnavigating the protection software. More Haziness there, do they sue you for coping, the software company that prob states use at your own risk. Then you have the software protection suing the software company for the program and also you for using the software...... My Head Hurts!!!

All it is, is $$$$ for lawyers!!

[sgt_doofey]

Don't forget that there is plenty of other code within cars these days, not just the ECU. You'll probably find that the manufacturers would rather look after their intellectual property on those millions of lines of code than the probably 1000's in an ECU.

The other thing is, why would manufacturers shoot themselves in the foot by starting to prosecute tuners or people with aftermarket tunes? That then means they'll lose sales as people who want to tune their cars will avoid those manufacturers that litigate and look to others that don't.

[IanC]

This is a big issue in the US. John Deere the tractor company is trying to stop farmers from repairing their own machinery.
https://www.theguardian.com/environm...hn-deere-apple
They are using DMCA to prevent anyone except their agents working on their products.

A lot of computer software companies only licence their products. You cannot buy them and you have to renew the licence each year to continue to use it. I am sure car companies would like to do that also.

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by XByoot

Yeah, i guess they are concerned about product image. Imagine if tuners reprogram a DBW system or fit aftermarket pedals and there is a problem with interface with the management system and it causes major accident or fatality..... it's the manufacturers name in the paper,ABS systems or traction controls modified as a by product of fooling a system,stuff can go into limp modes and still cheat warning lights,all sorts of possibilities that I'm sure the manufacturers see and get accused for making unsafe cars etc etc......but on the flip side it's the owner car of course. Personally,I get zero mods till out of warranty,then it's your to do as you wish,or void warranty if you mod before hand. I think Ford got wind of guys spraying Mustangs and fronting up with torched pistons to claim warranty,don't blame them for being onto it...this is of course taking it to another level.

With all this tech for the sake of tech ...ie sales pitch( our new model is even lazier to operate and you have to concentrate less as a driver ) is exactly the reason I bought my fgx and just makes it that much more precious

You can see cars in the future just becoming a motorised smartphone