Lost in the translation

mowog · 17-10-2006, 11:53 AM

There has been a lot said in recent posts about smoothness and refinement in the small car class but my post also applies to the larger cars. In our quest for ever more refined cars have we lost some of the soul in our cars? We seem to be increasingly isolated from the experience of driving is this a good thing?

I do love the refinement of my Territory and its ability to eat country miles on a road trip and on mountain roads it is enjoyable in an isolated kind of way. But I also enjoyed the experience of driving my Mini Moke(s) it was gutless noisy and handled in a way that only a Moke could, any small modern car could run rings around it, but to drive it was to love it. The same can be said for my long lost MKI Cooper S it is slow by modern car standards but the sounds and vibrations of the car added to the experience as well.

When car has some edge to it or some handling flaws it is tagged as a dog because we have become so accustomed to an isolated experience but we can accept some of these flaws in cars like the new Lotus’s.

For me I like a car that presents a challenge sometimes, a car that lets me know its engine is there and working. And at times being able to feel that the car is at the edge of its available handling limits.

GreenMachine · 17-10-2006, 12:20 PM

I don't know... I love driving my modern, airconditioned, stable, fast, effective-braked car. Sure, it doesn't have the "character" of the older cars I've owned, but do we seriously want cars that stall when you drive them through puddles, need to be filled up every two days, rattle and clunk like the dash is going to fall in to your lap every time you run over a cigarette packet...

I sometimes fall victim to this brainless nostalgia when I walk past what's left of my ZH sitting under the house... Sure, we all remember our younger days in hot cars as big, loud love, but if crappy old cars are so good, why don't more new cars come with column shift?

Bud Bud · 17-10-2006, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mowog

There has been a lot said in recent posts about smoothness and refinement in the small car class but my post also applies to the larger cars. In our quest for ever more refined cars have we lost some of the soul in our cars? We seem to be increasingly isolated from the experience of driving is this a good thing?

I do love the refinement of my Territory and its ability to eat country miles on a road trip and on mountain roads it is enjoyable in an isolated kind of way. But I also enjoyed the experience of driving my Mini Moke(s) it was gutless noisy and handled in a way that only a Moke could, any small modern car could run rings around it, but to drive it was to love it. The same can be said for my long lost MKI Cooper S it is slow by modern car standards but the sounds and vibrations of the car added to the experience as well.

When car has some edge to it or some handling flaws it is tagged as a dog because we have become so accustomed to an isolated experience but we can accept some of these flaws in cars like the new Lotus’s.

For me I like a car that presents a challenge sometimes, a car that lets me know its engine is there and working. And at times being able to feel that the car is at the edge of its available handling limits.

Good post! I am bit like you as well. While I do enjoy new car refinement, (especially for the daily grind) there is nothing like getting into and driving a well looked after 60's/70's bus either if only because you have to actually drive the damn thing rather than it drive you. If it is a muscle car then even better.

A Sunday cruiser, now that’s the stuff!

mowog · 17-10-2006, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenMachine

I don't know... I love driving my modern, airconditioned, stable, fast, effective-braked car. Sure, it doesn't have the "character" of the older cars I've owned, but do we seriously want cars that stall when you drive them through puddles, need to be filled up every two days, rattle and clunk like the dash is going to fall in to your lap every time you run over a cigarette packet...

I sometimes fall victim to this brainless nostalgia when I walk past what's left of my ZH sitting under the house... Sure, we all remember our younger days in hot cars as big, loud love, but if crappy old cars are so good, why don't more new cars come with column shift?

You make a good point I didnt intend to say we need to regress. I had my Moke(s) swap ends under brakes a number of times these old cars need to be driven within their limitaions.

My question is have we taken too much of the soul out of the modern car. We have sporting cars that are just so isolated now days. We have small cars with refinement getting close to that of large cars.

A car doesnt need to be big, loud and unsafe to have some soul.

**PepeLePew** · 17-10-2006, 12:32 PM

Soul tends to mean faults/flaws.

The experience of driving aint what it used to be....gimme back some soul

GreenMachine · 17-10-2006, 12:38 PM

Nah, sorry... Soul and a distinct lack of safety go hand in hand.

It's a tough balance.

The GreenMachine clearly has soul because it's big, loud and dangerous. Throttle applied at the wrong time WILL park the thing somewhere in the scenery off to the left.

The FBT has no soul because it's safe, quiet, reliable, handles well and is unlikely to land anyone in trouble.

You're looking for the middle ground. Unfortunately, that middle ground is exclusively populated by crappy cars that aren't well built or new enough to be soulless, but aren't powerful enough to be dangerous. I.e. an '88 Pintara.

Sorry - The car you seek does not exist. Unless you count 80's Nissans.

Neeek · 17-10-2006, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenMachine

Nah, sorry... Soul and a distinct lack of safety go hand in hand.

And I shall disgaree with you on this one... most of the time, your statement stacks up. But not always. Take something like a Porsche 911. Far and away a safer car than anything built pre 1988, or whatever, and masses and masses of soul.

There are exceptions.

Anyway to the original post, I get out of our newly acquired Mazda 323 which has power everything and aircon and fun stuff like that. It's a great car. But I then get into my wagon and have to contend with a much tougher clutch, unassisted steering, manual windows, no aircon and fuel economy measured in gallons per hundred feet.

I honestly prefer driving my car to the shops, and indeed up the coast a few hundred kays. It's more alive, it's more exciting, and who cares if I get out of it at the end of a long trip deaf due to the exhaust noise, high on PULP because it reeks of it and looking like I've been dragged through a hedge backwards...? Not I.

Moderns have their place (and rightly so), but it depends more on the driver than the car as to whether you prefer one or the other. Of course, a modern car is better at just about everything. But that's not necessarily fun - something my wagon most certainly is.

GreenMachine · 17-10-2006, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neeek

And I shall disgaree with you on this one... most of the time, your statement stacks up. But not always. Take something like a Porsche 911. Far and away a safer car than anything built pre 1988, or whatever, and masses and masses of soul.

Crap. Porsches are just another pre-packaged mid-life-crisis mobile. Sure, they're fast, sure, they end up in impressive stacks at speed, but you get there with the aid of a 10 speaker stereo, air con and stability control.

Totally soulless.

Neeek · 17-10-2006, 01:10 PM

Surely the definition of whether a car has "soul" is defined by the size of the smile on the drivers face when he/she gets out of it after a good thrash?

EDIT - assuming they're not drunk/high/an imbecile...

GreenMachine · 17-10-2006, 01:15 PM

But I can get a smile from driving anything, particularly our soulless work Commodores... Soul is a far more complex thing than that.

mowog · 17-10-2006, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neeek

Surely the definition of whether a car has "soul" is defined by the size of the smile on the drivers face when he/she gets out of it after a good thrash?

EDIT - assuming they're not drunk/high/an imbecile...

Thats a pretty god way to look at it...

I think current cars by Lotus come pretty close an Exaige S would be a wild ride... These things are engineered for drivers and fun.

Neeek · 17-10-2006, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenMachine

But I can get a smile from driving anything, particularly our soulless work Commodores... Soul is a far more complex thing than that.

Of course it's more complex, but the best single definition, IMHO, is the smile. Anyone can have fun in any car.

GreenMachine · 17-10-2006, 01:51 PM

Sorry mate, I'll only accept that a car has soul if that smile is through a mouthful of broken teeth (some still embedded in the steering wheel), your beer is spilt on your shirt and a small fire is burning in the background.

mowog · 17-10-2006, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenMachine

Sorry mate, I'll only accept that a car has soul if that smile is through a mouthful of broken teeth (some still embedded in the steering wheel), your beer is spilt on your shirt and a small fire is burning in the background.

You forgot to mention the steering column thru your chest.... Now those were the days when real men drove cars...

: and died in them...

new2ford · 17-10-2006, 02:14 PM

Like mowog I owned/drove BMC FWD cars years ago and I know exactly what he is referring to - and they weren't all that unsafe either, unlike some larger RWD cars that will remain nameless on this forum!

However I don't think soul has entirely disappeared - its just got safer. When I got the Territory the first thing that struck me was the driving excitement that I used to have in the old BMC cars. The same probably applies to the Falcon and I believe Ford still makes what they used to call "drivers cars" - as distinct from the bland sloppy whitegoods that come from Toyota etc.

I think soul lives on in good design too. The RWD Territory (which we have) is a well sorted car but the old BMC FWDs were really good. But what's happened since then? On the weekend I was going round a multilane bend on a wet road with a Barina in another lane just ahead of me at the same speed. The Territory stayed on its feet well-composed as always but the Barina did a rear-end slide-out in front of me!

Now the Barina should be the philosophical descendant of the BMC Mini but here I was staying stable on a wet bend in my RWD tank (with an emergency stop as well) and this other modern FWD wonder was all over the place.

The Territory has soul.

Ruger · 17-10-2006, 02:14 PM

Not exactly classic vs modern but i do prefer my old hotted up EA (may she rest in peace) over my BA. the ba is smooth but it misses the rugged raw feel of the ea (the ea was manual vs the ba auto that has alot to do with it) with the ba it feels all covered up and held down like you say the spirit of the car is covered up in a big way!

mowog · 17-10-2006, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by new2ford

Like mowog I owned/drove BMC FWD cars years ago and I know exactly what he is referring to - and they weren't all that unsafe either, unlike some larger RWD cars that will remain nameless on this forum!

However I don't think soul has entirely disappeared - its just got safer. When I got the Territory the first thing that struck me was the driving excitement that I used to have in the old BMC cars. The same probably applies to the Falcon and I believe Ford still makes what they used to call "drivers cars" - as distinct from the bland sloppy whitegoods that come from Toyota etc.

I think soul lives on in good design too. The RWD Territory (which we have) is a well sorted car but the old BMC FWDs were really good. But what's happened since then? On the weekend I was going round a multilane bend on a wet road with a Barina in another lane just ahead of me at the same speed. The Territory stayed on its feet well-composed as always but the Barina did a rear-end slide-out in front of me!

Now the Barina should be the philosophical descendant of the BMC Mini but here I was staying stable on a wet bend in my RWD tank (with an emergency stop as well) and this other modern FWD wonder was all over the place.

The Territory has soul.

Go the Mini's

It would be interesting to know what the tyres were like on the Barina...

I mostly argree with on the Toyota thing they are white goods on wheels... But if you are ever in Brisvagas I invite you to see and experiance an exception to the rule.

Edit: http://editorial.carsales.com.au/car...w/2031707.aspx

new2ford · 17-10-2006, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mowog

I mostly argree with on the Toyota thing they are white goods on wheels... But if you are ever in Brisvagas I invite you to see and experiance an exception to the rule.

Edit: http://editorial.carsales.com.au/car...w/2031707.aspx

Well yes, Toyota engine. I won't quibble with that but look what's wrapped around it!

The Toyota thing (of which the Camry is an excellent example) is the bland vehicle dynamics/suspension/ steering/ ergonomics and all those things that add up to the automotive equivalent of a Maccas vanilla soft-serve.

RSgerry · 17-10-2006, 09:04 PM

I have a brand new Mazda SP23 which isnt a bad little car. It certainly goes around corners nicely, but it does lack something. My RS is a load more fun to drive, but not in traffic. My Mini Cooper is just great to drive everywhere, but lacks practicality. It isnt that fast, but throw it at some roundabouts, trafficcalming devices (not speedbumps) or corners and there is nothing on four wheels that makes you smile. And it is totally reliable.