When is it too much?

[Patty]

Hi All,

I'm a keen reader of Motor and Wheels and I like to keep up with the latest car trends etc. But one thing that is troubling me slightly is the fact that car makers are bringing out gearboxes with more and more gears.

10 years ago a 6 spd auto was the best, then the German companies started with Dual clutch, 7, then 8, and now I read that even Ford are going to put their 10spd design in the mustang.

Now hear me out, I understand the extra ratios improve efficiency, and keep the cars within the optimum torque band. But hear lies the question. At what point will it effect the way the car feels behind the wheel? The way we feel the acceleration? I love driving around my old man's GT 6 spd in manual mode and it feels just right. The gears hold long enough to enjoy hearing the engine wind out, you hit redline at 6000 rpm in second, change to 3rd and it goes back down to 3000rpm or so and climbs back up. But if it were a 10spd, wouldn't you always be hovering between 5000-6000 rpm and not feeling the acceleration in the same way? Does that make sense?

My Mum has an audi with an 8spd and yeh it feels zippy but I find it frustrating how often it changes gear and to me it just doesn't feel right to me. It's not fun.

Does anyone catch my drift. At what point are we putting efficiency over fun?

[simon varley]

Originally Posted by Patty

At what point are we putting efficiency over fun?

I'd say around about 1980

[Patty]

Originally Posted by simon varley

I'd say around about 1980

To clarify, I was talking mainly about sports cars. I understand the average Camry, Mondeo will have 8-10 spd auto as standard in the next 10 years but it does surprise me that for performance cars we are getting more and more gears. I could be totally wrong here though....

[stig_3754]

These cars tend to have paddle shifters or some form of 'manual mode' so you can hold the gears for as long as you want on spirited drives anyway.

[Sabantien]

My girlfriend has an Audi with 7 or 8 gears or whatever, and it's smooth enough I don't notice the gear changes in normal driving, and when you put your foot down it holds the gear plenty long. Slip it into sports mode and it's constantly high revving and pretty much doesn't get past third.

The extra gears at the top end such as in the 10 speed Ford are putting into the Mustang have a number of overdrive gears, I don't think it'll affect the sort of driving you're talking about at all.

CVT is probably more what you're worried about.

[ebv8]

my bro's pajero sport is an 8 speeder and i can't feel it change, its always ready to go too as it has a small power band and the 8 speed helps keep it on torque.
i couldn't image an 8 speed in my GT, i love the feel of it winding out

p.s. i don't think any mustang or that type of car should have an auto at all, it maybe faster and smoother but i'd prefer to drive a car not steer a car....just my 2c

[poppa smurf]

I remember when a four speed was something to brag about....beat the hell out if the old two speed auto.

[Raptor]

It's just getting you used to the coming (or here now really) electric cars, yes even for sports/performance driving.

Don't worry, they won't have any gears


But for internal combustion engines I think when they went from 5 to 6 (6th being an extra tall overdrive for economy) it was probably too many





.

[FPV6]

Funny this discussion come up i was cruising the other night in my sprint 8

and rolled up to a set of lights (no I didn't drag on public roads) but besides me was a Merc C63 a new one to. As we took off my gears felt like CVT where as this car beside was like blah change gear blah change gear blah change gear 3 gear changes and we didn't even cross the intersection we roll up to the next set of lights he hits it well let me tell you now i know why the invented rev limiters

[FPV6]

Originally Posted by ebv8

my bro's pajero sport is an 8 speeder and i can't feel it change, its always ready to go too as it has a small power band and the 8 speed helps keep it on torque.
i couldn't image an 8 speed in my GT, i love the feel of it winding out

p.s. i don't think any mustang or that type of car should have an auto at all, it maybe faster and smoother but i'd prefer to drive a car not steer a car....just my 2c

Yes and no for me not with modern Auto and paddle shifts and double clutched boxes and lighting gear changes

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

I remember when a four speed was something to brag about....beat the hell out if the old two speed auto.

I still remember fondly my old 3 spd column shift falcon

[mike_nofx]

Originally Posted by ebv8

p.s. i don't think any mustang or that type of car should have an auto at all, it maybe faster and smoother but i'd prefer to drive a car not steer a car....just my 2c

Lucky you don't manufacture cars, you'd go broke very quick.

I think you can enjoy driving a car without a manual option. Certainly Lamborghini and Bugatti think so, with no manual options even available, also the GTR Skyline is the same. All drivers cars.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by ebv8

my bro's pajero sport is an 8 speeder and i can't feel it change, its always ready to go too as it has a small power band and the 8 speed helps keep it on torque.
i couldn't image an 8 speed in my GT, i love the feel of it winding out

p.s. i don't think any mustang or that type of car should have an auto at all, it maybe faster and smoother but i'd prefer to drive a car not steer a car....just my 2c

Part of the mustangs success has been that its a car for every one, including the 3 speed auto backed 2.8l found in the first mustang generation.

[triples]

Originally Posted by ebv8

p.s. i don't think any mustang or that type of car should have an auto at all, it maybe faster and smoother but i'd prefer to drive a car not steer a car....just my 2c

The world's becoming (mostly) lazy.
I've been looking for a new work van, and can't get what I want in a MANual.
Go figure.
What happened to the hard core tradie that would work all winter in shorts and tshirts. Seems their just soft cocks that want to sip their skinny latte and cruise an auto on the way to site now a days.

Times are changing.

[ebv8]

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

Lucky you don't manufacture cars, you'd go broke very quick.

I think you can enjoy driving a car without a manual option. Certainly Lamborghini and Bugatti think so, with no manual options even available, also the GTR Skyline is the same. All drivers cars.

yes lucky.
all those drivers cars are built to be the quickest possible and you would probably have trouble navigating a gear stick while going that fast.
i'm just talking about the bread and butter performance cars like GT's, Mustang and Clubsports, they sell mainly auto's but it kind of defeats the purpose of the car. I wouldn't even consider having my GT in auto but thats just me and i'm an individual.

also i'm happy for base models to be auto its just the all out GT350/500 should be a manual even if its slower on the track

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

I still remember fondly my old 3 spd column shift falcon

ah! the "three on the tree"....... I thought the pushbutton auto on the dash of AP.5/6 was a modern marvel.

[thefargo]

who remembers the Preston. No gears just a very torquey helicopter engine.

[BradEL]

CVT ftw

[Bluehoon]

10 speed auto in a mustang?

Well, hairdressers need bragging rights too you know....

[Crazy Dazz]

With 8 gears, it might as well be a CVT.

The thing that concerns me, is what happens when they brake? Is it going to be worth fixing them?

[cycle myth]

Yeah - I used to think this too.

With the superb 6 speed auto in the Falcon I thought why would you want any more and if you did why would you pay much more for it.

I'm driving an 8 speed auto now and I understand why - just fantastic.

Can barely feel it change, and when needed can wring out the gears like you want to.

I can't think of why you would want any more than 8 or why you would want to pay much more for it.....

Looking forward to a 9 or 10 speed.

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

I remember when a four speed was something to brag about....beat the hell out if the old two speed auto.

Nothing more exciting than driving a 110HP 6cylinder with a two speed auto ..
You pull out to pass someone on 100kmh road and you'd better be sure the road is clear because you ain't going to get any kickdown to help with acceleration ..

[poppa smurf]

yeah! needed guts back then, but there again the road was a lot less travelled......them's were the days.....basically no speed limit that I can recall being policed, narrow gutted, crossply tyres, drum brakes, two ton behemoths that took arms like a wharfy to hold onto the road, no seat belts, solid steel dash, solid steering column.

pocket full of money and a gut full of grog and a sheila on our arm right next to us in our bench seat......soft mob nowadays with their 6 and 8 gear plush limo's.......mind you, breakdowns were not so often and often as not a roadside fix.

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

ah! the "three on the tree "....... I thought the pushbutton auto on the dash of AP.5/6 was a modern marvel.

You forgot, no syncho on 1st gear. 90% of the population would not be able to drive one today whilst doing their makeup. It is a little known fact that the term ****** originally was uttered by a person waiting behind a young fella driving a crash box, they could see his arm frantically trying to get 1st.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

yeah! needed guts back then, but there again the road was a lot less travelled......them's were the days.....basically no speed limit that I can recall being policed, narrow gutted, crossply tyres, drum brakes, two ton behemoths that took arms like a wharfy to hold onto the road, no seat belts, solid steel dash, solid steering column.

pocket full of money and a gut full of grog and a sheila on our arm right next to us in our bench seat......soft mob nowadays with their 6 and 8 gear plush limo's.......mind you, breakdowns were not so often and often as not a roadside fix.

Such good memories, I do miss them days.

Cheers

[prydey]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

two ton behemoths

you might be surprised to know that 'those cars' weren't actually that heavy. cars are heavier now than they've ever been.

a focus weighs nearly as much as 70's falcons.

[Ben73]

I just looked up YouTube videos on cars with heaps of gears. Saw one which was a 9 speed Mercedes.
It's changed fast, but it wasn't as bad as I would of thought. It was looking for 6th at 190km/h.
Those higher gears would mostly be for cruising at highway speeds.
Makes me wonder if 9speeds even get to top gear at 110km/h. I remember seeing something about when LandCruiser 200 was released it wouldn't change to 6th until 115km/h. Some owner were not happy because on the freeway it was always at the point where it wanted to change up, but wasn't quite quick enough.
I Thought 8 and 9 speeds might be more at home overseas where they have higher limits.

[Sabantien]

Originally Posted by Ben73

I Thought 8 and 9 speeds might be more at home overseas where they have higher limits.

And given that there are no cars being produced exclusively for an Australian market, that's exactly why they are coming with more gears.

[Patty]

Haha I'm loving some of these comments. My first car was a 4spd EB Falcon V8 and I thought the auto was the best! good old BTR.

Surely the manufacturers will get to the point where the benefits of the extra gearing aren't paying off any longer. I mean if someone where to make a 12 spd, surely the acceleration would suffer with so many gear changes.

Plus I would be worried about the cost of replacing or fixing one of these new gearboxes. It's all good when it's under warranty. But what about the risk for those who can't afford a new car and are buying 3-4 year old cars? Who will be able to fork out $5k plus for one of these autos?

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by prydey

you might be surprised to know that 'those cars' weren't actually that heavy. cars are heavier now than they've ever been.
a focus weighs nearly as much as 70's falcons.

not sure what they weighed but the zephyrs, chevys, fairlanes and a few others that I was running back then were pretty close to it.....seemed that way anyway the way they behaved like a ship on the ocean great cars,

[QUOTE=GREGL]You forgot, no syncho on 1st gear. 90% of the population would not be able to drive one today whilst doing their makeup. It is a little known fact that the term ****** originally was uttered by a person waiting behind a young fella driving a crash box, they could see his arm frantically trying to get 1st.[/QUOTE

ah yes I did forget the old crash box.......I do remember the 143 turns from lock to lock on the XP falcon with the "pursuit", or was that the "super pursuit" 170 motor

and the way the VC valiant just runs down the road as if it owned the whole place.

fantastic memories of, sadly, bygone era in motoring history.......

I remember the first GT "super roo" when it was first released, 140 MPH straight out of the showroom floor, big wide tyres, ridiculous red, chrome 12 slots, aggressive stance, fire it up and watch the piddle drain from small children and old woman at 100 yards.....amazing stuff and the start of the "super car era"......I seen the RT charger in racing gear residing in our street, I was there to watch it evolve.

now it's start it up, stick in "D" for dopey and pick up your iPhone and start texting while the car takes you to hungry jacks with a few occasional glances......too easy now.

however, out of dreamland and back to the question at hand, I can see a major benefit in swags of gears if towing, but apart from a smoother ride under normal conditions (whatever they are) very little other benefit, repair costs will mean that sometime in the future the car will be written off if it blows a box of cogs.