Windsor vs Cleveland vs Boss

[CAMS290]

Just with exhaust, throttle body and a tune there are quite a few Boss 290's getting over 275rwkw.
And a few running under 12.00 seconds in 1800kg utes.
Windsors and Clevo's can only dream about times like that with minor modifications, standard cams etc......

The low down torque hole with the Boss 260/290's can be helped with vernier cam gears, and the intake manifold design doesnt help the engines torque characteristics either, i cant wait to see a proper after market intake manifold with correct size runners designed.

Check this for a tough Modular http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=57021

[brenx]

Originally Posted by CAMS290

Just with exhaust, throttle body and a tune there are quite a few Boss 290's getting over 275rwkw.
And a few running under 12.00 seconds in 1800kg utes.
Windsors and Clevo's can only dream about times like that with minor modifications, standard cams etc......

The low down torque hole with the Boss 260/290's can be helped with vernier cam gears, and the intake manifold design doesnt help the engines torque characteristics either, i cant wait to see a proper after market intake manifold with correct size runners designed.

Check this for a tough Modular http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=57021

Thats because 351 clevelands new only had 157kw@the fly. Now what could a cleveland have achieved with 300kw
@ the fly?

Ford has done all the hard work for modular owners. Ford didn't do much for cleveland owners :( Well they the best they could did back in the 70's.

[CAMS290]

Originally Posted by brenx

Thats because 351 clevelands new only had 157kw@the fly. Now what could a cleveland have achieved with 300kw
@ the fly?

Ford has done all the hard work for modular owners. Ford didn't do much for cleveland owners :( Well they the best they could did back in the 70's.

Exactly my point Brenx, technology has come along way.

[brenx]

mmm quad cams I'd love a quad cammed clevo.

[ratter]

Originally Posted by nugget378

steve from RDP's cortina has gone as quick,just not posted :
Linky
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCu2rM3EOLE&mode=related&search=

8.35 is bloody quick...................................




it's just not as quick as the 8.30 from the modular engine at the top of the data base.:

[Barry_v]

Originally Posted by CAMS290

minor modifications, standard cams etc......

a minor mod for a clevo IS a modified camshaft design and valvesprings.. it doesnt have 4 cams and 32 valvesprings to change...

[ratter]

I see the video says it has a clevo in it, but his post on these forums says it still has a small block chev in it at the momment to set the car up ????


http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=63353

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by CAMS290

Just with exhaust, throttle body and a tune there are quite a few Boss 290's getting over 275rwkw.
And a few running under 12.00 seconds in 1800kg utes.
Windsors and Clevo's can only dream about times like that with minor modifications, standard cams etc......

The low down torque hole with the Boss 260/290's can be helped with vernier cam gears, and the intake manifold design doesnt help the engines torque characteristics either, i cant wait to see a proper after market intake manifold with correct size runners designed.

Check this for a tough Modular http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=57021

That is incredible, i was wondering what the Boss 5.4 was capable of with some decent revs, fast forward 10 years and there will most likely be a range of cheapish aftermarket kits available off the shelf like we have for the Clevo's now.

[ten[A]cio[U]s]

Its pretty even at the moment between clevo and windsor.

I didnt think this many people would replay.

[Gammaboy]

Originally Posted by ratter

8.35 is bloody quick...................................




it's just not as quick as the 8.30 from the modular engine at the top of the data base.:

Wait till Steve runs the Twin Turbo Clevo powered BA ute...
And that 8.35 was on street tires I believe?

[flathead 276]

4V MAN, Boss 302 was produced from 1969 to 1970. Cleveland was produced 1970 to 1972, in the US. Information from Ford performance by Pat Ganahl, 351W has 3.000 mains compared to 2.749 for 351C. Both share same size rod journals at 2.311, oh buy the way I voted Windsor.

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by flathead 276

4V MAN, Boss 302 was produced from 1969 to 1970. Cleveland was produced 1970 to 1972, in the US. Information from Ford performance by Pat Ganahl, 351W has 3.000 mains compared to 2.749 for 351C. Both share same size rod journals at 2.311, oh buy the way I voted Windsor.

The Boss 302 heads came from the Cleveland engine that was in the pre-production stage. The heads were used with some minor modifications to the water passages to suit the Windsor block. The reason for using the Cleveland heads was because the Windsor heads were too small and asthmatic for Trans-Am use, the Windsor Tunnel Port heads hadn't been successful and developing a new head would have been too expensive.

[flathead 276]

Very good, but does not change what was stated. If that is the case at all. Trans Am series racing proved they where better than Tunnel port heads. Those heads where all top end no bottom end & not a lot of mid range. Right Clevo or Windsor, I will have a Windsor any day, but a Windsor is a 351W, 221, 260, 289 ( which won Bathurst in the XRGT ) & 302 are just small block Fords. Main bearing issues are primarily Clevo problems, I have watched a lot of motor racing in my life which has seen Clevelands fall by the wayside in competition due to oiling issues. The small block has not had these issues, an after market block was displayed at SEMA in the US. Itwill be a Cleveland block, but with a revised oiling system, based on the small block, no restrictor kits required! Issue 24 & 16 of Australian Muscle Car are an interesting read, I recommend yourself & 4VMAN read them, I am not stirring the pot, just trying to set the record straight.

[Abacus]

Originally Posted by flathead 276

4V MAN, Boss 302 was produced from 1969 to 1970. Cleveland was produced 1970 to 1972, in the US. Information from Ford performance by Pat Ganahl, 351W has 3.000 mains compared to 2.749 for 351C. Both share same size rod journals at 2.311, oh buy the way I voted Windsor.

What about M-blocks. Do these qualify as Clevelands?

[1970galaxie]

Originally Posted by tel408

Clevelands eat the rest for breakfast!

That's bit rough mate!
Give the Boss 30 years of development, and see how it all goes.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by ratter

8.35 is bloody quick...................................




it's just not as quick as the 8.30 from the modular engine at the top of the data base.:

Lets see if we can split a flies hair lol,I know that engine is in a mustang,are there any more details available on the car though??

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by flathead 276

4V MAN, Boss 302 was produced from 1969 to 1970. Cleveland was produced 1970 to 1972, in the US. Information from Ford performance by Pat Ganahl, 351W has 3.000 mains compared to 2.749 for 351C. Both share same size rod journals at 2.311, oh buy the way I voted Windsor.

Yes the BOSS 302 was avaliable in 1969, but the 4V Cleveland was first cast in 1969 too, Early XWGT blocks and 4V heads have 1969 casting dates on them, they were definately avaliable as a finished motor in 1969.
Id say Cleveland or the "windsor replacement engine" development and design work would have started as early as 1968..

[ratter]

Originally Posted by nugget378

Lets see if we can split a flies hair lol,I know that engine is in a mustang,are there any more details available on the car though??

Don't know the car at all to know the details, it just it was claimed clevo's are the most powerful and probably the quickest on the forums here, just wanted to clear up that according to the time slip database, they are not, it doesn't mention street car or street tyres, it mentions the time and mph. I guess regarding the title of the thread, car type or useage is irrelevant.

Did you check the other link regarding what motor is in the cortina?

[xbgs351]

It's easy to get calender and model years mixed up when talking about American cars and engines.

[Abacus]

A few people have referred to the ongoing "relevance" of the Cleveland.

No doubt they were a great motor. I voted for them in this poll.

But as far as ongoing relevance is concerned, I dunno. Unless somebody can come up with an emissions compliant EFI compatible induction setup, you won't see them transplanted into a modern road car. Ford will certainly never resurrect them. Like it or not, the modular engines are the way of the future.

As time goes on more and more Cleveland’s will simply fall by the wayside. Come 2015, how many examples of this early 70's aberration will be running in any vehicle, road or competition?

Yes they were a great engine for their time. They are still relevant today for specific applications in specific period vehicles. But are they relevant to most enthusiasts, be they Ford or otherwise? Not that I can see.

Legendary, yes. Revered, yes. But relevant, no.

[bartaxr8]

Originally Posted by Gammaboy

Cammer never made it into a production car, and never made as much power in race trim as the Boss9.

I'll agree with you when you say the Cammer never made it into a production car but a Cammer in drag race trim in the old front engined AA/FD made about 3500HP and I can't remember if they used Boss 429's in Top Fuel? Not having a dig and am always ready to learn more. Thanks.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Abacus

A few people have referred to the ongoing "relevance" of the Cleveland.

No doubt they were a great motor. I voted for them in this poll.

But as far as ongoing relevance is concerned, I dunno. Unless somebody can come up with an emissions compliant EFI compatible induction setup, you won't see them transplanted into a modern road car. Ford will certainly never resurrect them. Like it or not, the modular engines are the way of the future.

As time goes on more and more Cleveland’s will simply fall by the wayside. Come 2015, how many examples of this early 70's aberration will be running in any vehicle, road or competition?

Yes they were a great engine for their time. They are still relevant today for specific applications in specific period vehicles. But are they relevant to most enthusiasts, be they Ford or otherwise? Not that I can see.

Legendary, yes. Revered, yes. But relevant, no.

Neither the cleveland or the windsor have any relevance in terms of current technology, they're both outdate and redundant technology however they are both VERY relevant in the context of Fords rich V8 history.
The modular motor is the current product, and shows outstanding potential as a "hotted up" product, its in its infancy as a motor though.

[Gammaboy]

Originally Posted by ratter

Did you check the other link regarding what motor is in the cortina?

That link is Steve's NEW cortina. The old car that ran 8.35 in the vid had a Clevo. WORLDS FASTEST STREET CLEVO.
Apparently the new Corty will have the twin turbo ute clevo, which is the old corty's motor plus turbos.

[Abacus]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Neither the cleveland or the windsor have any relevance in terms of current technology, they're both outdate and redundant technology however they are both VERY relevant in the context of Fords rich V8 history.
The modular motor is the current product, and shows outstanding potential as a "hotted up" product, its in its infancy as a motor though.

Yeah, I agree with what you say.

I should have made it clear I wasn't having a dig at Clevo lovers. In my reclining years I want to restore an XA/XB/XC coupe with a 4V Clevo.

It will be interesting to see just how far Ford takes the modular motor, or whether they change direction again.

Why do they call them a "modular" motors anyway? There's always been interchangeability between Ford V8s, witness the mixing and matching with Windsor blocks and Clevo heads, etc.

[Gammaboy]

Originally Posted by Abacus

It will be interesting to see just how far Ford takes the modular motor, or whether they change direction again.

Why do they call them a "modular" motors anyway? There's always been interchangeability between Ford V8s, witness the mixing and matching with Windsor blocks and Clevo heads, etc.

The Modular v8 was intended to share parts with a v6 and a 4cyl i believe.

There are rumours suggesting that the upcoming "Hurricane" motor will be pushrod again.

[070mstg]

i read the term 'modular' was more to do with the factory setup/tooling than the engine design. and has been mistaken as being a 'modular' engine design. anyone know more about this?
EDIT,just did some searching,cant find anything to back this up,seems to be more to do with sharing/interchangability parts

[ebxr8240]

Any Ford that sounds and goes like this.. Yates headed 351W twin 70mm turbo's..
On this pass it was on 5 Lb boost..
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/3...290182f3ac.htm

[ratter]

Originally Posted by Gammaboy

That link is Steve's NEW cortina. The old car that ran 8.35 in the vid had a Clevo. WORLDS FASTEST STREET CLEVO.
Apparently the new Corty will have the twin turbo ute clevo, which is the old corty's motor plus turbos.

Thanks for clearing that up :hihi:

[flathead 276]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Yes the BOSS 302 was avaliable in 1969, but the 4V Cleveland was first cast in 1969 too, Early XWGT blocks and 4V heads have 1969 casting dates on them, they were definately avaliable as a finished motor in 1969.
Id say Cleveland or the "windsor replacement engine" development and design work would have started as early as 1968..

When was the Cleveland released in Australia? 1970 part way through the XW model run, it was fitted to GT & GTHO as 351W engines where running out. Casting date and actual release dates are different as mass production requires a stockpile of engines, to be available for customer demand. You will find we got the engine asap courtesy of Allan Turners contacts with FMC USA, he apparently pulled a few strings to obtain them. 351M is a part of the 335 family, if you go through earler posts Abacus you will find the answer there, sorry if it seems like brush off, as I must leave for work.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by flathead 276

When was the Cleveland released in Australia? 1970 part way through the XW model run, it was fitted to GT & GTHO as 351W engines where running out. Casting date and actual release dates are different as mass production requires a stockpile of engines, to be available for customer demand. You will find we got the engine asap courtesy of Allan Turners contacts with FMC USA, he apparently pulled a few strings to obtain them. 351M is a part of the 335 family, if you go through earler posts Abacus you will find the answer there, sorry if it seems like brush off, as I must leave for work.

: it doesnt really matter when they were fitted to cars in Australia, the fact remains they were manufactured and assembled ready for fitment in the states in 1969.