Are Australian Fords REALLY so bad?

[DJM83]

Yeah each to their own. I have 0 interest in an auto car, for me it takes away the fun in driving. Yeah traffic can be a pain sometimes but id still prefer my manual anyway because on the right road at the right time all the clutch in, clutch out in traffic is forgotten.

[SumoDog68]

Never had an auto in 20 years of driving - bought one last year in Navara 550 , cant fault it. I still enjoy driving a manual car , nothing matches driving a manual for fun but in daily traffic auto is better. No point clutching in and out 1000 times in traffic jam ...no fun in that.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

The I6 in my EL Falcon has always ran pretty rough, even before the cam and tune, it vibrates and missfires at idle, even though it has new plugs, leads, dizzy cap, rotor button and coil.

I think its just a problem with my particular car as my mates Nissan Patrol with the 4.2L I6 idles very smoothly, you could put a 5c coin on top of the engine and it would stay there.

Blown intake manifold gasket.
Had the same issue with ours, even Ford had no idea.
My gas tuner diagnosed it.
I too had replaced the entire ignition componentry including coil.
Had one so called mechanic 'relocate' the coil to the strut tower as he was sure it was the issue.
Changed the gasket, no more problems.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

The I6 in my EL Falcon has always ran pretty rough, even before the cam and tune, it vibrates and missfires at idle, even though it has new plugs, leads, dizzy cap, rotor button and coil.

I think its just a problem with my particular car as my mates Nissan Patrol with the 4.2L I6 idles very smoothly, you could put a 5c coin on top of the engine and it would stay there.

Yeah I think there is another issue there, like BENT_8 says an intake manifold gasket or a vacuum leak somewhere, all Falcon I6's can be a bit gruff but my XG with 250,xxx on the clock for example runs smooth as and could (almost) balance a coin on the rocker cover like your mate's GQ.

It can take some stuffing around, but once you get them right they run sweet as and are great motors.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by FNQracing

The only Ford I6 that will be remembered in years to come will be the Barra, both NA and Turbo. Up until then, Ford I6's were noisy, harsh and inefficient. Hardly the factors that make for a great engine. They were tough, I'll give you that, but only if you ignore the constant troubles with head gaskets and standard issue oil leaks.

Ford never made a sweet inline 6 until 2002. Sorry, the others were pigs, but they got the job done.

I agree to a point, but to call them pigs is a bit rough. You'll struggle to find a more reliable petrol engine than the AU I6. So the sump or rocker cover gaskets would start to leak after 300k, who cares. In the big picture an oil leak never stopped an AU just ask any cab driver.
My first AU was a 4.0 Forte, which would return 7.6l/100km consistently open road. Forget your on paper figures, there's nothing inefficient about it in the right application.

The FG Falcon is as good as the large Aussie car has ever been, something that can mix it with the rest of the world. Whenever I get a rental there is no other car I go for, my last run with air con on over 150km mostly flat in an XR6 was 7.3l/100km. I can't think of a car I'd rather drive long distance. And we all know the FG will be the safest buy of any modern car once warranty runs out.

Although I own one I cant say I'm a huge fan of sedans, but its hard to go past a falcon. Lets see an Asian or Euro car get 4 32" inflated tyres in the back. And the old girl managed to get 8.3l/100km, 4.0 BA Ghia.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by FNQracing

The only Ford I6 that will be remembered in years to come will be the Barra, both NA and Turbo. Up until then, Ford I6's were noisy, harsh and inefficient. Hardly the factors that make for a great engine. They were tough, I'll give you that, but only if you ignore the constant troubles with head gaskets and standard issue oil leaks.

Ford never made a sweet inline 6 until 2002. Sorry, the others were pigs, but they got the job done.

Utter Bollocks.

I’d rate EVERY I6 from the 2v 250 onwards as being THE BEST available in their class. 3.9 was annoying because it leaked like a sieve, but compared to the old Buick clapper Holden were flogging at the time it was miles ahead.
The AU engine remains my favourite engine of all time, practically indestructible.

[FNQracing]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

I’d rate EVERY I6 from the 2v 250 onwards as being THE BEST available in their class. 3.9 was annoying because it leaked like a sieve, but compared to the old Buick clapper Holden were flogging at the time it was miles ahead.
The AU engine remains my favourite engine of all time, practically indestructible.

They may have been the best in their class, which isn't hard when you have a class of 2 if you only compare them to the equivalent Holden offering of the day.

The Ford engines were easily outdone by their Japanese peers from Mr Bishi and Toyota when it came to reliability, efficiency and NVH.

I was probably being a bit harsh when I called the older Ford engines pigs, but they are hardly world class and had significant shortcomings.

I stand by my claim of them being harsh, noisy and inefficient until BA. The AU engine should have been fitted to the EF. There was no excuse for taking 10 years to get the SOHC motor right. The AU engine was good, but it was just too late to the party.

Ford had plenty of opportunity to make a BMWesque straight six, but waited until 2002 to deliver something noteworthy.

[ryeman]

That's why my first Ford was the FG .... the Oz BM.
Up until then there was always unfinished business .....why did it take so long? ....too long?

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Utter Bollocks.

I’d rate EVERY I6 from the 2v 250 onwards as being THE BEST available in their class.

I Love my Fords... and I drove a 2V 250 for 20yrs.... I loved it for what it was... but it was not "Best in class" by a long way ! Chrysler's HEMI I6 was a far superior motor to any I6 from Ford or Holden, at that time! The 245 had more power (per ci) got better economy and was virtually indestructable. Had Chrysler kept going.. and kept upgrading it (like Ford did with the 250) it probably would have stayed ahead of the game too !?

As mentioned before... the old I6's may have been a little rough n' ready when compared to what other brands were offering (at the time... especially in the 80's)... but they they have proven themselves, over time, (with regular servicing) to be fairly reliable and extreemly durable.... which makes then cheap to run & maintain (not debating fuel usage in that) providing many years of service !

I think the DOHC I6 is a great motor ! In BF/FG form the NA 4.0 has similar power/torque output to the old E38 Charger's 4.3 "6pack"... and can easily return 8.5 L/100 (on the open road). No complaints from me about that !

I, for one, will be very disapointed to see the Falcon I6 go... when that day finally comes !

D

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by FNQracing

They may have been the best in their class, which isn't hard when you have a class of 2 if you only compare them to the equivalent Holden offering of the day.

The Ford engines were easily outdone by their Japanese peers from Mr Bishi and Toyota when it came to reliability, efficiency and NVH.

I was probably being a bit harsh when I called the older Ford engines pigs, but they are hardly world class and had significant shortcomings.

I stand by my claim of them being harsh, noisy and inefficient until BA. The AU engine should have been fitted to the EF. There was no excuse for taking 10 years to get the SOHC motor right. The AU engine was good, but it was just too late to the party.

Ford had plenty of opportunity to make a BMWesque straight six, but waited until 2002 to deliver something noteworthy.

And how does Ford Australia's funding compare with BMW's....

Falcon is built to a budget for a small market, BMW is world wide.

You cant compare the two fairly, infact it should be commended that Ford Aus has been able to provide such a power plant considering its only available here.

[FNQracing]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

And how does Ford Australia's funding compare with BMW's....

Falcon is built to a budget for a small market, BMW is world wide.

You cant compare the two fairly, infact it should be commended that Ford Aus has been able to provide such a power plant considering its only available here.

Yes I can, because its not rocket science to build a decent straight 6 engine. Ford proved they could build a decent I6 when they did Barra. The point I'm trying to get across - why did it take them so damn long?

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by FNQracing

Yes I can, because its not rocket science to build a decent straight 6 engine. Ford proved they could build a decent I6 when they did Barra. The point I'm trying to get across - why did it take them so damn long?

The OHC i6 has been through an evolution from its conception in EA until now.

From CFI to MPFI, standard intake to broadband intake, tin sump to integrated bottom end structure, revised top end with the option of VCT to DOHC and its varients and all have seen major improvements over the predecessor.

Holden were still using the shocking ecotec V6 until VZ which couldn't be compared to even the EF's version of the i6 from 10 years earlier.

[Maka]

Originally Posted by FNQracing

Yes I can, because its not rocket science to build a decent straight 6 engine. Ford proved they could build a decent I6 when they did Barra. The point I'm trying to get across - why did it take them so damn long?

In short, imo COST & economies of scale.

Falcon (Australian home market, limited export worldwide) -

Smaller R&D budget, smaller purchase price, smaller spec, class (family four door sedan), era.

BMW (German & world market, unlimited export worldwide) -

Bigger R&D budget, bigger purchase price, bigger spec, different class (luxury four door sedan), era.

Dohc i6 back in the day were exclusive to race cars or $80,000 + luxury vehicles & eventually that tech trickled down to the cheaper family vehicles
due to that tech becoming more affordable to mass produce. Top end cars always gets the latest tech before the cheaper versions.

Concerning the fwd i6 dohc opposition, yes they had dohc before Falcon but their markets (usa being one) & r&d budgets were heaps bigger than Fords or Holdens for that matter.

Taken from Wiki, "Economies of scale are the cost advantages that enterprises obtain due to size, with cost per unit of output generally decreasing with increasing scale as fixed costs are spread out over more units of output. Often operational efficiency is also greater with increasing scale, leading to lower variable cost as well"

cheers, Maka

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by FNQracing

Yes I can, because its not rocket science to build a decent straight 6 engine. Ford proved they could build a decent I6 when they did Barra. The point I'm trying to get across - why did it take them so damn long?

I thought the I6 in my 1998 AU Fairmont was more fuel efficient, otherwise very comparable and probably less harsh than the one in my 2003 BA Ghia, for normal day to day driving.

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by FNQracing

Yes I can, because its not rocket science to build a decent straight 6 engine.

Off you go then... let us know when you're done !!

[FGII-XR6]

I'm sure your revelations will surprise many cab owners . the AU 6 was extremely reliable without the head issues of previous models. I have seen many AU taxis with 600 to 800K on the clock with no head gasket problems and the best I have personally driven is an AU2 that is still in use as a daily driver after retiring as a taxi. it now has over 900 000 Ks on it and the head has never been off it. it starts first time every time blows no smoke and has only minor oil leaks. try that with an imported ( supposedly refined) V6. the owner has told me he is hoping to hit 1 000 000 ks on the engine it rolled out of the factory with . this is the sort of thing ford needs to use in it's advertising

Originally Posted by FNQracing

The only Ford I6 that will be remembered in years to come will be the Barra, both NA and Turbo. Up until then, Ford I6's were noisy, harsh and inefficient. Hardly the factors that make for a great engine. They were tough, I'll give you that, but only if you ignore the constant troubles with head gaskets and standard issue oil leaks.

Ford never made a sweet inline 6 until 2002. Sorry, the others were pigs, but they got the job done.

[Nic85]

Mercedes V6 engines used in Taxi's over in Germany would easily hit those sort of KMs. V6's used in the Magna and 380 will do well over 500,000kms all original too.

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by Nic85

Mercedes V6 engines used in Taxi's over in Germany would easily hit those sort of KMs. V6's used in the Magna and 380 will do well over 500,000kms all original too.

I'll stack an AU I6 up against any of those and it would win convincingly on reliability. The Mitsubishi V6 you mention won't even come close, you may have seen one achieve these Ks but it would be the exception not the rule. The AU I6 has been proven to repeatedly achieve very high Ks under difficult conditions ( do you think most cab drivers look after their cabs? ). go to a wreckers looking for an AU engine and they will have them in bulk as the aren't big sellers as they just keep going

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

I'll stack an AU I6 up against any of those and it would win convincingly on reliability. The Mitsubishi V6 you mention won't even come close, you may have seen one achieve these Ks but it would be the exception not the rule. The AU I6 has been proven to repeatedly achieve very high Ks under difficult conditions ( do you think most cab drivers look after their cabs? ). go to a wreckers looking for an AU engine and they will have them in bulk as the aren't big sellers as they just keep going

How's the view out of those glasses?

[FGII-XR6]

I can get hundreds of taxi owners to back my claims not just people who use them as commuter cars . if you think a Mitsubishi V6 can come even close to the AU 6 it's your glasses we need to worry about

Originally Posted by Nic85

How's the view out of those glasses?

[flappist]

Ok, stop the bickering.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

I thought the I6 in my 1998 AU Fairmont was more fuel efficient, otherwise very comparable and probably less harsh than the one in my 2003 BA Ghia, for normal day to day driving.

The BA engine when solely compared to the AU 6 was 8% more fuel efficient engine for engine, but the extra weight of the BA wiped out all those efficiency gains.


As for the Mitsubishi V6 being as long running and durable as the Falcon I6

I see just as many Magna V6's pouring out blue oil smoke as I do astron 4's.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by FNQracing

Yes I can, because its not rocket science to build a decent straight 6 engine. Ford proved they could build a decent I6 when they did Barra. The point I'm trying to get across - why did it take them so damn long?

In a nut shell, buyer expectation.

The Falcon six was evolved continuously as part of customer feed back,
the expectations of buyers was for a lusty torque laden low revving smooth engine.

It's sad now to think that the very thing that defined what the Falcon was and still is, has now become it biggest liability.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

I can get hundreds of taxi owners to back my claims not just people who use them as commuter cars . if you think a Mitsubishi V6 can come even close to the AU 6 it's your glasses we need to worry about

The two greatest taxi's of all time were the XF and the AU so this is undeniably true, however, the 3.5l V6 Mitsubishi engine is a very refined power plant and in sports/GTV or VRX form was quicker than both rival big 6's, both 5.0l rivals and was only knocked off by the LS1 commodore for 0-100 times.

I currently have a 01 TJ VRX 5sp in my possession with 161k's and it is tighter than my previous AU2 SR, 1 owner grandpa car with the same k's.

To be honest, I cannot understand why Mitsubishi failed and Holden survived as the 3rd gen Magna was the best vehicle to come out of SA at the time.
For fit, finish and NVH they couldn't be beaten, hell they even offered drink holders which could hold SA's famous Farmers Union Iced Coffee cartons...lol

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by FNQracing

They may have been the best in their class, which isn't hard when you have a class of 2 if you only compare them to the equivalent Holden offering of the day.

The Ford engines were easily outdone by their Japanese peers from Mr Bishi and Toyota when it came to reliability, efficiency and NVH.

I was probably being a bit harsh when I called the older Ford engines pigs, but they are hardly world class and had significant shortcomings.

I stand by my claim of them being harsh, noisy and inefficient until BA. The AU engine should have been fitted to the EF. There was no excuse for taking 10 years to get the SOHC motor right. The AU engine was good, but it was just too late to the party.

Japanese 6's were rubbish for most of the decades covered. The big Nissan (and later Toyota) engines fitted to their buses and 4wds were tough and reliable, yet Ford’s engine was smoother, more powerful, and more economical. Mitsubishi? ROFL.
The OHC I6 was a Bloody good engine from the EBII onwards, so that’s about 4 years, not 10. The Latter Toyota & Nissan big V6’s are good engines, but they lose their “smoothness” once a bit of wear sets in and they cannot get anywhere near the longevity of the I6.

[flooded one]

how many magnas have reached 500,000kms?? most need rebuild by 300,000km. there not a bad car but the motors aren't as durable as the falcons 6

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by wildrider

how many magnas have reached 500,000kms?? most need rebuild by 300,000km. there not a bad car but the motors aren't as durable as the falcons 6

What % of the population keep a vehicle past 350-400k these days?

Not many, id say.

Theres little doubt the AU was a great taxi due to the reliability of the i6, but for general day to day family duties the 3rd gen Magnas were more than capable of providing trouble free motoring.

The good thing about the Magna is that the periodic issues can all be dealt with at major service, timing belt and water pump, rocker cover gaskets with rear 3 plugs etc.
Its not like a head gasket or heat exchanger which will fail without warning.

I test drove a 03 TJ GTV 5sp manual with 250k on it and I couldn't fault it, it definitely had more than 50k left in it.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Blown intake manifold gasket.
Had the same issue with ours, even Ford had no idea.
My gas tuner diagnosed it.
I too had replaced the entire ignition componentry including coil.
Had one so called mechanic 'relocate' the coil to the strut tower as he was sure it was the issue.
Changed the gasket, no more problems.

I'll have to check it out, both gaskets as I assume there is one on the block and one where the upper half splits off?

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Yeah I think there is another issue there, like BENT_8 says an intake manifold gasket or a vacuum leak somewhere, all Falcon I6's can be a bit gruff but my XG with 250,xxx on the clock for example runs smooth as and could (almost) balance a coin on the rocker cover like your mate's GQ.

It can take some stuffing around, but once you get them right they run sweet as and are great motors.

I'll be on the lookout for vacuum leaks.

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

What % of the population keep a vehicle past 350-400k these days?

Not many, id say.

Theres little doubt the AU was a great taxi due to the reliability of the i6, but for general day to day family duties the 3rd gen Magnas were more than capable of providing trouble free motoring.

The good thing about the Magna is that the periodic issues can all be dealt with at major service, timing belt and water pump, rocker cover gaskets with rear 3 plugs etc.
Its not like a head gasket or heat exchanger which will fail without warning.

I test drove a 03 TJ GTV 5sp manual with 250k on it and I couldn't fault it, it definitely had more than 50k left in it.

and because people aren't going too keep a car past 300,000kms doesn't make a good argument to say a V6 magna is the better engine. If anything that would prove the falcon 6 is better as there is a lot of falcon 6s from those days pushing 300,000kms plus still on the roads. I'm not saying the manga's a bad car. all I am saying is that you wont get that durability from a magna V6 that the falcon 6 has. just because a cars running well at 250,000kms doesn't mean it still will be running well at 300,000kms. a lot can go wrong in 50,000kms especially with a 10 year old car

[PG2]

In regards to most people not keeping Falcons past 350,000ks is generally true.

However, once those cars reach those sort of Ks they are on sold to younger teenagers as their first car etc.

Think of this? If one teenager buys a Falcon I6 and another one buys, for example, a Magna at 300,000ks which one is generally going to be more reliable? Also which one is generally going to be cheaper to repair/maintain?

Time and time again I see people buy cars on their own previous experiences. As a result, I would think that it would be more likely that a teenager that has had a relatively more reliable first car that has also been cheaper to repair/maintain may keep buying that same brand of car for his/her second and subsequent cars. If the teenager has had to re-build the engine and pay extra for repairs and servicing I would think that it would leave a negative ownership experience and he/she would be less likely to buy that same brand again.

With this scenario, it can only be good for Ford?

I understand that they are old high k cars and the comparisons are not 100% relevant to newer cars but the teenager only has his own experiences to go by and will accordingly act upon them when buying their next car.