And it's gone.... - Page 5

Falc'man · 13-07-2010, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT

Interesting and who would know for sure. The following is not gospel just some of what I get told occasionally ........ I received a phone call in January 2009 telling me that the XR8 (as we know it) would be going and the only V8s would be FPV vehicles. I was told that V8s would only come out of FPV and no longer from the main plant and that included utes.

I did relay this to a few people (Theo at Bluepower will remember this) and there were those who laughed at this pearler but so did the thread here on the AFF when I also told them that Ingall was going to Holden 9 months before it hit the Press. Same source also told me Lowndes was going to Holden 18 months in advance.

Time will tell - well that is stating the obvious! No need to burn me at the stake as this is merely a sharing of what could prove to be completely untrue and Ford are always changing their minds, anyway, I reckon the car will be badged an entry FPV vehicle and priced much higher than it currently is. I did think that the GS release was a toe in the water.........

GT

Yes, that's something I remember you saying. I distinctly recall because I was told the exact same thing about the same time you said it, but from "left field".

I don't know how far they've gotten with the n.a. motor but one must ask the question: Why would FordAu have it if it's not to be used? At least immediately.

Consider the following.

There's Ford's global T6 programme happening at the moment. Who knows the magnitude of this programme, and what kind of resources this is tying up locally? It's massive!

There is also the work involved with the lilpg and ecoboost 4 for Falcon. That needs to be ready early next year. Don't forget the Territory, that too requires another packet of engineers, and is scheduled for early next year, too.

So it's all hands on deck at the moment, and my point is Ford need to prioritise what gets done first. FPV will press on with their product, which is to be revealed soon. In the case of Ford, in my opinion it is when, not if.

JPFS1 · 13-07-2010, 01:30 AM

Falc'man

T6 program doesn't impact on the local stuff really. They have their own workforce.

T6 has a much larger team behind it (~ 3 times bigger - and that's just here in Aus), but it also has so many more variants to engineer and test for global market.

It's just unfortunate (but not out of the ordinary) that almost all the local program updates have had issues!

LeadFoot81 · 13-07-2010, 06:31 AM

After a lot of pre-release hype, the BA XR8 was underwhelming. Meanwhile the XR6T took the fight right up to the LS engined SS.

For me personally, since 2003 anything Boss engined has suffered the sort of stigma that the AU suffered with alot of people: that its just no good. I'm pretty sure the genral public and alot of the enthusiast community feels this way also.

The GT had the interior and exterior features (and most imortantly a badge that tugs at the heart strings) to survive the 'Boss negativity' the XR8 (with only a bonnet to differentiate from the 6T) has not fared so well.

Since the B-Series the XR8 (which as a product for the masses just wasn't good enough) has had to fight both the 6T and SS for sales: I think that if Ford do drop the name and go for a slightly upmarket GS it won't be because the badge is beyond rescue, but because they don't want two excellent products (turbo 6 and Coyote V8) to directly fight each other for sales.

On a personal note I'm disgusted that so many people are ready to lynch the XR8 badge itself, there's alot of history there and the EL2-AU3 XRs had a clear performance advantage over the XR6. The XR8 deserved a better engine than the Boss, unfortunately Ford had to do the best they could with the bits and pieces that were available. Coyote will fix whatever damage has been done to the badge.

**Professor Farnsworth** · 13-07-2010, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeadFoot81

After a lot of pre-release hype, the BA XR8 was underwhelming. Meanwhile the XR6T took the fight right up to the LS engined SS.

For me personally, since 2003 anything Boss engined has suffered the sort of stigma that the AU suffered with alot of people: that its just no good. I'm pretty sure the genral public and alot of the enthusiast community feels this way also.

The GT had the interior and exterior features (and most imortantly a badge that tugs at the heart strings) to survive the 'Boss negativity' the XR8 (with only a bonnet to differentiate from the 6T) has not fared so well.

Since the B-Series the XR8 (which as a product for the masses just wasn't good enough) has had to fight both the 6T and SS for sales: I think that if Ford do drop the name and go for a slightly upmarket GS it won't be because the badge is beyond rescue, but because they don't want two excellent products (turbo 6 and Coyote V8) to directly fight each other for sales.

On a personal note I'm disgusted that so many people are ready to lynch the XR8 badge itself, there's alot of history there and the EL2-AU3 XRs had a clear performance advantage over the XR6. The XR8 deserved a better engine than the Boss, unfortunately Ford had to do the best they could with the bits and pieces that were available. Coyote will fix whatever damage has been done to the badge.

instead of singling out every single point you just made, i'll respond with this:

I couldn't agree with you less.

but just one item:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeadFoot81

After a lot of pre-release hype, the BA XR8 was underwhelming. Meanwhile the XR6T took the fight right up to the LS engined SS.

what are you talking about there? In stock form which i presume you're referring to, as you're talking about the XR8 being 'underwhelming' for whatever reason, the BA XR8 will outrun the XR6 Turbo, albeit by the narrowest of margins, so

Joe5619 · 13-07-2010, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor Farnsworth

what are you talking about there? In stock form which i presume you're referring to, as you're talking about the XR8 being 'underwhelming' for whatever reason, the BA XR8 will outrun the XR6 Turbo, albeit by the narrowest of margins, so

For the extra fuel you dont want a "Narrowest of margins" between XR6T & XR8.. This is the exact reason I bought an FG XR6T over XR8.. If there was a SC V8 XR8 with a nice step up in performance over an XR6T, then the story would have been completely different!! For me the XR8 was very very very underwhelming when sitting next to an XR6T..

If Ford get the XR8 right, just watch the XR6T sales drop & the XR8 sales increase!!

**Professor Farnsworth** · 13-07-2010, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

For the extra fuel you dont want a "Narrowest of margins" between XR6T & XR8.. This is the exact reason I bought an FG XR6T over XR8.. If there was a SC V8 XR8 with a nice step up in performance over an XR6T, then the story would have been completely different!! For me the XR8 was very very very underwhelming when sitting next to an XR6T..

If Ford get the XR8 right, just watch the XR6T sales drop & the XR8 sales increase!!

the only turbo i'd ever be interested in is a v8 with a turbo bolted on.. each to their own though, makes the world colourful.

LeadFoot81 · 13-07-2010, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor Farnsworth

instead of singling out every single point you just made, i'll respond with this:

I couldn't agree with you less.

but just one item:

what are you talking about there? In stock form which i presume you're referring to, as you're talking about the XR8 being 'underwhelming' for whatever reason, the BA XR8 will outrun the XR6 Turbo, albeit by the narrowest of margins, so

Teehee Joe5619 just proved my point with his choice of purchase; the slimmest of margins just isn't good enough considering the BA XR8 cost more to purchase, insure, service and fuel up. Add to this the compromised nose heavy handling. Im not critcizing anyones choice to buy a Boss engined XR8; but purely as a performance product (irrespective of red or blue, 8 or 6) the turbo makes more sense.

I love my V8s too but the Boss just isn't good enough compared to the 6T. I can still remember after the BA launch guys with XR8 220s and T3s test driving Boss engined BAs and deciding not to upgrade (or going the turbo)

I dont understand why you CBF discussing my individual points, isnt that the point of a forum? Is my reasoning that bad, or are you just lazy?

**Professor Farnsworth** · 13-07-2010, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeadFoot81

I dont understand why you CBF discussing my individual points, isnt that the point of a forum? Is my reasoning that bad, or are you just lazy?

go troll somewhere else, seriously. i never said i couldn't be bothered, i made it abundantly clear that i disagreed with everything you wrote, so there was little point in my itemising it in its entirety.

to many, many people, owning a v8 is not exclusively to have a faster car, it's about the ambience of driving, the feelings it conjures up regardless of the road speed or velocity in general. i've driven many turbo's and yes, they can be blisteringly fast, but they do nothing for me because i don't feel they have anywhere near the character of a v8, in any guise.

swanee · 13-07-2010, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor Farnsworth

to many, many people, owning a v8 is not exclusively to have a faster car, it's about the ambience of driving, the feelings it conjures up regardless of the road speed or velocity in general. i've driven many turbo's and yes, they can be blisteringly fast, but they do nothing for me because i don't feel they have anywhere near the character of a v8, in any guise.

Well put..

I spoke to someone on the weekend about the same thing.

He also said that though the turbos can be extremely fast, he said (and I quote him not me) the turbos lack emotion.

4Vman · 13-07-2010, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeadFoot81

Teehee Joe5619 just proved my point with his choice of purchase; the slimmest of margins just isn't good enough considering the BA XR8 cost more to purchase, insure, service and fuel up. Add to this the compromised nose heavy handling. Im not critcizing anyones choice to buy a Boss engined XR8; but purely as a performance product (irrespective of red or blue, 8 or 6) the turbo makes more sense.

I love my V8s too but the Boss just isn't good enough compared to the 6T. I can still remember after the BA launch guys with XR8 220s and T3s test driving Boss engined BAs and deciding not to upgrade (or going the turbo)

I dont understand why you CBF discussing my individual points, isnt that the point of a forum? Is my reasoning that bad, or are you just lazy?

Well im not sure where you get your stories from, but having owned both a BA XR8 and 220kw AU2 XR8.... AT THE SAME TIME i can assure you there was a significant difference between them, the BA WAS most certainly quicker, and "felt" far more powerful than the AU...

Motor/Wheels never seemed to be able to get a BA XR6T to go as quick as a BA XR8 either..

Some "accounts" about the difference between the 2 are just pure fantasy...

Quicksand · 13-07-2010, 04:06 PM

Sigh...here we go again. Just wait people, be patient. Things will be unravelled in good time.

flappist · 13-07-2010, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Well im not sure where you get your stories from, but having owned both a BA XR8 and 220kw AU2 XR8.... AT THE SAME TIME i can assure you there was a significant difference between them, the BA WAS most certainly quicker, and "felt" far more powerful than the AU...

Motor/Wheels never seemed to be able to get a BA XR6T to go as quick as a BA XR8 either..

Some "accounts" about the difference between the 2 are just pure fantasy...

Remember the BAs were very "experimental" and there were significant differences in performance between the autos and manuals as well as the same configurations in BA2 and later.

I remember driving an early auto GT demo after driving my GT-P and taking at back reporting it was faulty as it had very little comparitive performance at all.

The BA1 turbos were fitted it T5 gearboxes and were severely torque limited in lower gears as were both the auto T6 and XR8. The XR8 auto was delayed quite a while after the manual because of this problem.

So basicly in the beginning the T3650 based manual XR8 and FPV were kings of the 400m out of the hole with the auto T6 being able to just pass a XR8 towards the end of the strip.

Compared to current offering they were all quite slow with low 14 second times being the usual (except of course for someone's mate's buddy's ex girlfriend's brother who did 9.6 seconds in the rain while pulling a caravan at "insert track here").
They were still the quickest Ford factory standard vehicles ever sold up to that time. (cue the true believers who are absolutely sure that their model was quicker because of someone's mate's.......)

Over the subsequent models gearboxes and diffs were upgraded and engines tuned so that now we have the FG levels of performance.

But back to the original thread.

Leaving FPV out of it, BA had a V8 available in every model except wagon and other than XR8 they were all spectacular sales failures. As time went on the V8 sales of the others because worse and worse until in FG they were all dropped with the obvious exception.

FG XR8s are not particularly common as the majority of V8 buyers seem to go for GT (or GS). It is interesting to note that while the BA/F Ghia V8 was a failure G6ET has been a spectacular success.

It is all a numbers game and if XR8 does get a reprieve I suspect it will be on thin ice and if it does not sell will be gone.

As I stated above, if you want one, buy one because if no one does then no one will ever be able to again.............

tranquilized · 13-07-2010, 04:40 PM

If I remember right the XR6T and XR8 were priced about equal when the BA came out. I thought this was a good strategy by Ford. As people have said, some prefer the charactaristics of a V8, regardless of how fast it can do 400m, while others are more concerned with performance figures, others fuel economy etc etc. Each to their own, I can fully appreciate both angles. So back in the BA days, people had the choice between the two.

So while more customers went for the XR6T, and with the FG even more so, the XR8 really still needs to be there, as its the entry level V8 varient. From a marketing perspective I dont think you can judge its validity solely by sales figures like you would most other varients. V8's weren't selling in the early 80's, so they were dropped. Perfectly reasonable decision: providing your only looking at the bottom line in the short term. We all know the damage that decision caused Ford in the longer term.

If FPV provide the only V8's, customers who cant afford them will move to Holden. While only representing a relatively small amount of lost sales, it'll have a ripple effect not disimilar to what happend in the 80's. Ford should be cutting the XR8 some slack. It does more for them than the raw sales figures suggest.

Joe5619 · 13-07-2010, 05:04 PM

I think (and I could be completely wrong) it is a bit of a generation thing too... The older folk love there V8's, yet the younger generation love to be blown (minds out of the garter!!) & have moved to powerful 4 cylinder turbos. I think Ford are onto a MASSIVE hit with a blown V8. Keep both generations happy!!!

**Professor Farnsworth** · 13-07-2010, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I think (and I could be completely wrong) it is a bit of a generation thing too... The older folk love there V8's, yet the younger generation love to be blown (minds out of the garter!!) & have moved to powerful 4 cylinder turbos. I think Ford are onto a MASSIVE hit with a blown V8. Keep both generations happy!!!

older folk? lol how old do you think i am?

Age is irrelevant, you're either into v8's, or you're not. I love them, but my dad doesn't like them in the slightest. He prefers the straight 6 any day.

Joe5619 · 13-07-2010, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor Farnsworth

older folk? lol how old do you think i am

by older folk (And I never said old, I was trying to choice my words carefully), I'm probably only talking mid-late 40's onwards... I'm in my early 30's & V8's dont do it for me as much as Turbos & SC do (& alot of my friends now & growing up were the same). That is why I think a SC V8 will attrative a younger crowd to the Facon who might have other wise bought EVO's or WRX, etc...

Anyway, that is my theory base on sweet f all, other than my part of the world!!

galaxy xr8 · 13-07-2010, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

by older folk (And I never said old, I was trying to choice my words carefully), I'm probably only talking mid-late 40's onwards... I'm in my early 30's & V8's dont do it for me as much as Turbos & SC do (& alot of my friends now & growing up were the same). That is why I think a SC V8 will attrative a younger crowd to the Facon who might have other wise bought EVO's or WRX, etc...

Anyway, that is my theory base on sweet f all, other than my part of the world!!

I'm in my early 30's and it's V8's all the way for me.
I don't believe age has anything to do with it, as in the early 80's or so (where most young to middle age driver's at the time) most V8's were blown anyway , with a whopping 6/71 hanging out the bonnet.

04redxr8 · 13-07-2010, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Compared to current offering they were all quite slow with low 14 second times being the usual (except of course for someone's mate's buddy's ex girlfriend's brother who did 9.6 seconds in the rain while pulling a caravan at "insert track here").
They were still the quickest Ford factory standard vehicles ever sold up to that time. (cue the true believers who are absolutely sure that their model was quicker because of someone's mate's.......)

Hey, I know that bloke. It was actually a 9.8.

I love my XR8. I love everything about it. I don't care that it is not as quick, some 6T's out there. I Don't care that it doesn't handle aswell as the 6's.

I JUST LOVE DRIVING IT. Isn't that what its all about. Everybody wants to bag it out compared to whatever other car. What does that prove??

With the state of our roads, Queenslands complete mismanagement of roadworks, low speed limits, speed cameras, traffic, etc, where and how often can you enjoy the speed of a full blown 6T anyway. I prefer to just cruise along.

Cruise speed in a Turbo 6, is just driving a 6, but cruising in a V8 is always cruising in a V8. Everybody wants something different, instead of critising others choices, maybe consider the ramifications if Ford do drop the XR8.

Road_Warrior · 13-07-2010, 05:28 PM

Hey don't get me wrong, I'd love a V8, but the Minister for Finance/Secretary for War put the handbrake on that idea. But, she likes turbos, because she thinks they are more fuel efficient than V8's and other large engines. Which suits me, if it helps me get my bum into some sort of performance car as our family wagon

The G6ET Spot · 13-07-2010, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swanee

Well put..

I spoke to someone on the weekend about the same thing.

He also said that though the turbos can be extremely fast, he said (and I quote him not me) the turbos lack emotion.

That quote rings to true for me.

Having gone from an XR8 into a G6ET, the turbos are a fast car and give you a rush WHEN you are able to let it have its legs.

But the V8 gives you that same sort of feeling when you are just driving around normally.

All I wish is that Ford would hurry up and let us know what is happening so I can sell The G6ET and get back into an 8

LeadFoot81 · 13-07-2010, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor Farnsworth

go troll somewhere else, seriously. i never said i couldn't be bothered, i made it abundantly clear that i disagreed with everything you wrote, so there was little point in my itemising it in its entirety.

to many, many people, owning a v8 is not exclusively to have a faster car, it's about the ambience of driving, the feelings it conjures up regardless of the road speed or velocity in general. i've driven many turbo's and yes, they can be blisteringly fast, but they do nothing for me because i don't feel they have anywhere near the character of a v8, in any guise.

I totally agree with you, Ive driven an unnervingly quick modified 6 spd auto BFXR6T but I just didnt feel 'loved' by it. It was cold and clinical.

Im not trolling, I just felt you ignored my constructive opinions on product placement (the point of this thread) to defend your opinion of 6T vs V8.

The GS is a clever way of shifting the XR8 up higher than the SS/Turbo but lower than the GT/Clubby/F6. If the new Coyote powered 'insert name here' has no direct competitor Ford could potentially shift more units (besides the HSV GXP I think its called)

swanee · 13-07-2010, 05:49 PM

There were hardly any XR8's sold in the last quarter of 2009 due to FPV taking possession of all XR8's for the GS.

Production stopped and only XR8 models that were in stock at dealers were sold. I found this out when I went to buy one last October/November. Pretty much 250 odd XR8 sedans that could have been sold were given to FPV.

LeadFoot81 · 13-07-2010, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Well im not sure where you get your stories from, but having owned both a BA XR8 and 220kw AU2 XR8.... AT THE SAME TIME i can assure you there was a significant difference between them, the BA WAS most certainly quicker, and "felt" far more powerful than the AU...

Motor/Wheels never seemed to be able to get a BA XR6T to go as quick as a BA XR8 either..

Some "accounts" about the difference between the 2 are just pure fantasy...

I remember guys on fordforums.com before the.com.au days (predominantly T3 owners mind you) being underwhelmed with the Boss. The fact the XR8 made 260kws (10 more than the 5.6 Windsor) but couldnt beat the SS/Clubby with fewer killowatts was a bitter pill to swallow after a lot of hype. Add to that the fact the XR 8 was more expensive at launch (5-6k) than the T which the mags rated as more capable. I dont doubt your preference or reasons for upgrading but comparing Ss/Xr8 sales BA-FG its clear the Boss just isnt a good enough product for Joe Average.

**kypez** · 13-07-2010, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tranquilized

If I remember right the XR6T and XR8 were priced about equal when the BA came out.

The BA XR8 was about $6k more expensive than the XR6T. ($50,130 plus on roads VS $44,640 plus on roads manual if my memory serves me right) I think the XR8 dropped when Holden dropped the SV8, priced the SS at SV8 prices and created the SSV. Think that was BA2 or BF when that happened.

Fireblade · 13-07-2010, 06:03 PM

My allegiance to Ford came in 92 when I had my first ride in a EB XR8, I fell in love with the idea and came to the conclusion when I can afford to get myself one I will. 10 Years down the track I got one, albiet a AU XR8, had ol faithful for 6 years and loved every minute of it, I always knew I could of got better cars than that but just having an XR8 was enough for me. I love V8's and always will but I love every minute of driving my F6 too, it holds alot of emotion for me, there is a rush in a turbo that the 8 couldn't give me, now the missus on the other hand is the same as some of you guys, to her there is no feeling driving it, she likes the grunt but it to her it is no V8. If it was a GT I would be hard pressed for her to get of it, it was a sad day for her when we made the decision to trade the XR8 in for the F6.

Swings and roundabouts people, its an internal Ford vs Holden debate and what gives you the warm and fuzzies, I don't want the XR8 name to die and I don't think it will, it will just be under new management persay.

b055m4n · 13-07-2010, 06:23 PM

hi fellas im a proud bf xr8 owner the working man's sporty v8 sure it could of a better car in many ways but for the money its a bloody good car and its a ford not a fpv all the more to be proud of it for what it is great value for money it won't be if fpv get way you listening ford !!

HSE2 · 13-07-2010, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b055m4n

hi fellas im a proud bf xr8 owner the working man's sporty v8 sure it could of a better car in many ways but for the money its a bloody good car and its a ford not a fpv all the more to be proud of it for what it is great value for money it won't be if fpv get way you listening ford !!

I think it’s important to remember that there is one goal here and that is to sell cars. Ford/FPV is the one entity with a common mission in that respect. Positioning, politics, return on investment will dictate the final form of the products we will be driving.
We have surmised that for some time there is only the S/C engine available for this year and we suspect there needs to be a certain volume to make the business case viable.
If Ford has decided that the XR8 should remain N/A for positioning, cost reasons and for all we know, engine availability reasons, I think that’s a decision that should be applauded. The negative might be that it disappears for a period of time. The positive will be that it will retain its relative affordability with what is a world class engine.

Ghiadude · 13-07-2010, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kypez

The BA XR8 was about $6k more expensive than the XR6T. ($50,130 plus on roads VS $44,640 plus on roads manual if my memory serves me right) I think the XR8 dropped when Holden dropped the SV8, priced the SS at SV8 prices and created the SSV. Think that was BA2 or BF when that happened.

sorry to correct but the sv8 became the ss and the old ss became the ssV effectively holden repriced its whole range by changing badges...

ps these new smillies rock

**kypez** · 13-07-2010, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

sorry to correct but the sv8 became the ss and the old ss became the ssV effectively holden repriced its whole range by changing badges...

ps these new smillies rock

yes indeed. I was referencing the creation of the SSV brand that didnt exist and the "dropping" of the SV8. That said, the SV8 traditionally didnt have the full bodykit but the SS that replaced the SV8 did come in full kit.

tranquilized · 13-07-2010, 07:58 PM

The SV8 was introduced to cater to V8 customers on a budget. Like I've said, its an important albeit not very large market segment.
Ford need a cheap NA XR8 or they'll pay the price - not now, but in 10 years time.