FG wagon - what would it have been? - Page 4

prydey · 17-10-2011, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

Do you want the 1300 Sportwagon buyers a month to put up their hand?

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

One interesting point here is the belief by some that because another marque makes a model then if Ford made one too they would take all the sales.

Toyota have a huge market share with Aurion/Camry.

Maybe Ford should make Falcon be a FWD V6 then all the Toyota buyers would but Falcon instead. It would also take all the Commodore buyers who really want a FWD but Holden just will not make one.

That would give them a greater market share than everyone else.......

You know it makes sense....it is on the internet.....

falcon sedan must be killing the commo 6cyl sedan in sales. if you take out the supposed amount of sales that go to hatch and v8....

AMGC63 · 17-10-2011, 07:14 PM

Well today i had a supplier try to bring stuff to me urgently in his Holden "sportswagon".. an interesting experience.

Ive had a number of both earlier Commodore and Falcon wagons over the past 18 years, both generous and genuinely usefull as wagons, but to put it bluntly these things are freakin useless as a wagon, couldnt even fit a mid sized box in it.

I suspect the early adopters will be once off buyers with these things, i doubt many will return for an update if there are better options around.

I certianly havent spoken with any reps who think they are usefull as a wagon, i also hear yarra valley water wont be getting new ones either due to poor cargo area.

Give it 4 years and i think the sportswagon will die off like all previous wagons and go down as a fad...

**Polyal** · 17-10-2011, 07:18 PM

Well perhaps but they had a crack and its worked thus far, they just need to pick the next "fad" to keep the ball rollin. You win some you lose some, most of the time Ford just drop the bat though.

prydey · 17-10-2011, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMGC63

Give it 4 years and i think the sportswagon will die off like all previous wagons and go down as a fad...

how many cars have holden built in the last 10-15yrs that are already no longer being sold. they have track record of making cars that apparently everyone wants once. adventra, monaro, coupe4, cross8, crewman, etc etc. where's that torana and 427?

look at all those sales ford missed out on!

AMGC63 · 17-10-2011, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

how many cars have holden built in the last 10-15yrs that are already no longer being sold. they have track record of making cars that apparently everyone wants once. adventra, monaro, coupe4, cross8, crewman, etc etc. where's that torana and 427?

look at all those sales ford missed out on!

Yes.. i think Ford should bring out a tribute model to pay hommage to all the passionate model experts on AFF, they could call it the Ford "Forum"; a 500rwkw LpiLPG V10 powered 8 sp ZF GTHO Falcon coupe wagon.... RRP $29,990.00 Drive away of coarse!! Oh, with 10" rears... and brembo's!

Struggo · 17-10-2011, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

how many cars have holden built in the last 10-15yrs that are already no longer being sold. they have track record of making cars that apparently everyone wants once. adventra, monaro, coupe4, cross8, crewman, etc etc. where's that torana and 427?

look at all those sales ford missed out on!

This is true, but all of the above mentioned cars were from the same platform, hence the flexibility and cost savings.

If only Ford AU had the gusto to take risks............

jpd80 · 18-10-2011, 12:51 AM

I don't think Ford has the cash to throw around on maybe products like Falcon Station wagon when sales aren't solid.

FG Euro 4 I-6 and I-6 T, Territory's V6 diesel, Eco LPI I-6 and Ecoboost I-4 were paid for by the government.
Imagine where Falcon engine technology would be without that funding, it's not a pretty picture.

**Gothefalcon** · 18-10-2011, 02:04 AM

Ford should just bite the bullit and build another decent wagon !! They spent years trying to tell us all, "the wagon is dead... buy a Territory instead"... but the wagon just wouldn't go away !! The fleets loved them... and the BF E-gas wagon I had was a fantastic travel car... and dirt cheap to run! Why would I buy a 4cyl car when the E-gas 6 only cost me $70 to get to Syd. !!?? Around town.... 600k would cost me only $55 !! Bargain! Holden has proved that if you build a nice wagon... the people will come to buy it... unfortunately.. it isn't much more than a hatchback... but a well equiped, decent sized wagon would also sell! The only reason the BF wagon didn't sell heaps more than it did.. is beacause Ford tried to give it the base model kill off !! My 302 XB GS Fairmont wagon was a great car... and that era's equivalent of todays Sportwagon.... A modern day version like that would still sell well !! I, for one, will be keeping my BF2 wagon for years to come !!

jpd80 · 18-10-2011, 04:21 AM

The one thing that could spoil LPG is the Henry tax review which recommends equalization of excise on
all vehicle fuels and taxing carbon. If the government go down that road of taxing vehicles on CO2 output,
manufacturers and consumers will quickly learn that a 2.2 diesel Falcon with 450 nm, 5.5 l/100 km, 149 gm/km CO2,
will be miles ahead of petrol and LPG engines in terms of CO2 output...

FWIW, I hate when do gooder greenies try to skew vehicle buying trends with lopsided taxes,
you see it in action with LPG but I would hate the thought of all fuels having the same excise
and then a CO2 tax whacked on top of vehicles as well, I suspect that's the plan for the future...

Call me suspicious but Ford is right to cover all bases if needed....

**Gothefalcon** · 18-10-2011, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

FWIW, I hate when do gooder greenies try to skew vehicle buying trends with lopsided taxes,
you see it in action with LPG but I would hate the thought of all fuels having the same excise
and then a CO2 tax whacked on top of vehicles as well, I suspect that's the plan for the future...

Call me suspicious but Ford is right to cover all bases if needed....

Agreed... going forward it will be great for ford to have alternative fuel powertrains to keep cars on the road & give us options for what best suits our needs & budgets no matter how the Govt. skews the equation.... but none of these will fit in a full sized Falcon Wagon.... if Ford don't make one!
This is one base Ford had covered.... and just stepped away from ! :(

**Polyal** · 18-10-2011, 10:16 AM

If people are worried about the height of a Tez, then I wonder how much work would be involved in making a Tez with a falcon ride height, RWD only and in TX form? Tradies get what they want (and more room I would think), make it ABN only? Dont know.

TheSneakiness · 18-10-2011, 10:24 AM

I was thinking about this on the train ride in this morning. I wanted to buy a wagon prior to buying my XR6 I had and doing it up.

I would like to do one now but the finances don't work for me at the moment.

I'd head to the auctions and pick up a decent BA/BF Futura wagon as a base, get hold of FTG or a local wrecker to save on delivery costs and get the full running gear out of a XR6 Turbo ute (from engine to diff) and swap it over in the wagon and there, XR6T wagon.

Or just buy a turbo kit from Snort and bolt that on, tuned to 6psi so the engine doesn't grenade within the first month and there's another option.

**Gothefalcon** · 18-10-2011, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

If people are worried about the height of a Tez, then I wonder how much work would be involved in making a Tez with a falcon ride height, RWD only and in TX form? Tradies get what they want (and more room I would think), make it ABN only? Dont know.

The CAPA boys in Melb. made a V8 Terry very early in the piece... They did it by removing the Terry suspension/steering/cross members etc and replacing it all with a BA's... this dropped the ride height and allowed for "easy" fitment of the V8.... But more room??? Nup! A Terry has a shorter wheel base than a Falcon Wagon & less rear overhang ! The Terry is 150mm taller in the body (Excluding ground clearance) and yet, inside... the difference between the cargo area floor and roof height is only 50mm... with the tailgate clear opening being almaost the same height! The Rear cargo area is shorter in length and narrower (Due to all those storage bins) and when you drop the back (middle) seat... the overall length is a lot shorter than the Falcon again! I went the other way... I've converted my BF2 Wagon to AWD... The extra 100mm in ride height is good for ground clearance... but doesn't make it any harder to get in and out of as my seats sit approx 80mm lower off the floor than a Terry's. I can still reach over the roof racks to tie stuff down... and I have the Wagon's HUGE cargo area to use! The AWD Wagon is also lighter than a Terry... so it will get better fuel economy! And.. extra drive is always good!

AMGC63 · 18-10-2011, 11:03 AM

I couldnt think of anything worse than lowering a Terri, it defeats the whole purpose and benefits of the Terri design in the first place.

**Polyal** · 18-10-2011, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMGC63

I couldnt think of anything worse than lowering a Terri, it defeats the whole purpose and benefits of the Terri design in the first place.

I didnt say it would be ghetto slammed, it was just a response to the "the Tez is too high" comments and I am sure other people feel the tez is to SUV for their liking.

LOL yes Gothefalcon your car is a beast no doubt, but I was thinking of a quick and easy (cheap) way for Ford to meet the "need" if it was there. I do recall the Capa Tez, I dont think FTG did the suspension change though and there is a mob in WA doing conversions now too.

**Gothefalcon** · 18-10-2011, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

LOL yes Gothefalcon your car is a beast no doubt, but I was thinking of a quick and easy (cheap) way for Ford to meet the "need" if it was there. I do recall the Capa Tez, I dont think FTG did the suspension change though and there is a mob in WA doing conversions now too.

Ha ha.. well.... yes... for you and I, it's not that cheap to do... but for Ford... I would argue that it wouldn't have cost a lot to develop !! In the grand scheme of things... I haven't had to alter or make that much at all !! The majority of stuff has been readily available from the parts bin... so Ford could have put some cash towards a few Wagon projects.. to make them more exciting.. and entice punters back to the Wagon!! Trouble for us Wagon-heads... Ford believed that nicer Wagons would undermine Terry sales !! I think the red corner has proven with ther Sporthatch & Craptiva... there are more than enough punters to buy both... if you package and price them right!

mik · 19-10-2011, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

The one thing that could spoil LPG is the Henry tax review which recommends equalization of excise on
all vehicle fuels and taxing carbon. If the government go down that road of taxing vehicles on CO2 output,
manufacturers and consumers will quickly learn that a 2.2 diesel Falcon with 450 nm, 5.5 l/100 km, 149 gm/km CO2,
will be miles ahead of petrol and LPG engines in terms of CO2 output...

FWIW, I hate when do gooder greenies try to skew vehicle buying trends with lopsided taxes,
you see it in action with LPG but I would hate the thought of all fuels having the same excise
and then a CO2 tax whacked on top of vehicles as well, I suspect that's the plan for the future...

Call me suspicious but Ford is right to cover all bases if needed....

yes you can guarantee every thing is now fair game(especially motorists), wait and see (prediction),it won`t be long before there is a co2 tax added to rego.

Bossxr8 · 19-10-2011, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

If people are worried about the height of a Tez, then I wonder how much work would be involved in making a Tez with a falcon ride height, RWD only and in TX form? Tradies get what they want (and more room I would think), make it ABN only? Dont know.

One of the guys from PD has fitted Falcon springs to his Territory and it is on its nuts. Looks awesome.

So it can't be too hard, although I don't know what it would do to suspension angles.

AMGC63 · 19-10-2011, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

One of the guys from PD has fitted Falcon springs to his Territory and it is on its nuts. Looks awesome.

So it can't be too hard, although I don't know what it would do to suspension angles.

Not to mention tyre wear, cv joint geometry angles etc.. Can't be good long term.

JG34JA · 19-10-2011, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gothefalcon

.. so Ford could have put some cash towards a few Wagon projects.. to make them more exciting.. and entice punters back to the Wagon!! Trouble for us Wagon-heads... Ford believed that nicer Wagons would undermine Terry sales !! I think the red corner has proven with ther Sporthatch & Craptiva... there are more than enough punters to buy both... if you package and price them right!

Absolutely, you've hit the nail on the head.
Fantastic wagon, by the way. Is there a link to a thread on it's build?

Phildo · 20-10-2011, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

I wonder.... how desirable have would a LPI wagon have been to taxi buyers?

It's going to get very interesting in the taxi industry in a few years.

In NSW, the age limit for a taxi is five years. So, in four more years there will be pretty much no station wagon taxis. Oh, there will be the occasional Commodore, but if you want to go to the airport with some luggage then you're probably going to end up getting two taxis - one for people and the other for luggage. Everyone will whinge like mad about it, but there isn't a solution. Taxi workshops are all geared up for Falcon stuff (ie parts and knowledge), so running a Commodore is a lot more expensive and complex.

In WA, a car must be less than five years old when it becomes a taxi, and must retire when it is eight years old, so that gives us a maximum of about seven more years.

My BFII wagon was made in July 2007, so I've got a bit under four years to go on that one. I'll probably replace it with the last of the BFIIIs when the time comes, although knocking back an LPi FG will be a tough call. I'll see what the demand is like for a wagon when the time comes - it might end up that I spend every night making good money doing airport runs.

Of course, if you get stuck somewhere with a pushbike (ie tired or flat tyre) then you'll have to wait for a van or start walking.

Wheelchairs and walking frames will be a problem. Sure, if it's dry weather then you can fold the wheelchair up and put it on the backseat, but if it's been raining then the wheelchair tyres will be dripping water. And, with a walking frame and/or wheelchair, the car will limited to one or two passengers. Wheelchairs and walking frames are extremely bulky to carry in a car.

I wonder if each Department of Transport will make a special exemption for wagons. That will give us an extra year or two, but won't be an effective, long term solution.

AMGC63 · 20-10-2011, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phildo

It's going to get very interesting in the taxi industry in a few years.

In NSW, the age limit for a taxi is five years. So, in four more years there will be pretty much no station wagon taxis. Oh, there will be the occasional Commodore, but if you want to go to the airport with some luggage then you're probably going to end up getting two taxis - one for people and the other for luggage. Everyone will whinge like mad about it, but there isn't a solution. Taxi workshops are all geared up for Falcon stuff (ie parts and knowledge), so running a Commodore is a lot more expensive and complex.

In WA, a car must be less than five years old when it becomes a taxi, and must retire when it is eight years old, so that gives us a maximum of about seven more years.

My BFII wagon was made in July 2007, so I've got a bit under four years to go on that one. I'll probably replace it with the last of the BFIIIs when the time comes, although knocking back an LPi FG will be a tough call. I'll see what the demand is like for a wagon when the time comes - it might end up that I spend every night making good money doing airport runs.

Of course, if you get stuck somewhere with a pushbike (ie tired or flat tyre) then you'll have to wait for a van or start walking.

Wheelchairs and walking frames will be a problem. Sure, if it's dry weather then you can fold the wheelchair up and put it on the backseat, but if it's been raining then the wheelchair tyres will be dripping water. And, with a walking frame and/or wheelchair, the car will limited to one or two passengers. Wheelchairs and walking frames are extremely bulky to carry in a car.

I wonder if each Department of Transport will make a special exemption for wagons. That will give us an extra year or two, but won't be an effective, long term solution.

Yes there is, diesel mondeo wagon...... problem solved.

BDA074 · 20-10-2011, 07:27 AM

Similar to some previous posts I personally feel that Ford can fill the Station wagon void by developing a Territory 'Lowrider' with Falcon ride height. Would fill a a number of voids including family/fleet/taxi. If it were available in Diesel it would be even more appealing. Development costs should be much lower as only suspension needs work and would not detract from Territory sales as it is a Territory!

AMGC63 · 20-10-2011, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDA074

Similar to some previous posts I personally feel that Ford can fill the Station wagon void by developing a Territory 'Lowrider' with Falcon ride height. Would fill a a number of voids including family/fleet/taxi. If it were available in Diesel it would be even more appealing. Development costs should be much lower as only suspension needs work and would not detract from Territory sales as it is a Territory!

Terri already comes in diesel.

What's the issue with ride height apart from aesthetics? Its a SUV/Wagon, not a "boy racer" vehicle...

As a family mover, Fleet vehicle or Taxi its a far more practical, functional vehicle as it is.

Phildo · 20-10-2011, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMGC63

Yes there is, diesel mondeo wagon...... problem solved.

Won't happen for taxis. They'll stick with Falcon sedans. There isn't any workshop support and knowledge for the Mondeo, and I'm guessing it won't have the rear passenger space that a sedan has. Fitting three big blokes in a Falcon is cramped enough. Every centimetre of space is required.

The Mondeo's 120kW won't cut it compared to the BF Falcon's 156kW or the 198kW that the LPi FG has.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMGC63

Terri already comes in diesel.

What's the issue with ride height apart from aesthetics? Its a SUV/Wagon, not a "boy racer" vehicle...

As a family mover, Fleet vehicle or Taxi its a far more practical, functional vehicle as it is.

Too big and too bulky. Extra weight and bulk = extra fuel consumption, wear on tyres, running, gear, etc. Ford aren't even pitching the Territory at the commercial market; they're pushing the Mondeo wagon. Some commercial buyers will make the move from Falcon to Mondeo (eg Hilti) but others will choose another vehicle (eg Telstra).

The diesel Territory's 140kW and 2021kg kerb weight makes it a porker for high km, non-stop city driving (ie lots of stop/starts).

AMGC63 · 20-10-2011, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phildo

Won't happen for taxis. They'll stick with Falcon sedans. There isn't any workshop support and knowledge for the Mondeo, and I'm guessing it won't have the rear passenger space that a sedan has. Fitting three big blokes in a Falcon is cramped enough. Every centimetre of space is required.

The Mondeo's 120kW won't cut it compared to the BF Falcon's 156kW or the 198kW that the LPi FG has.

Too big and too bulky. Extra weight and bulk = extra fuel consumption, wear on tyres, running, gear, etc. Ford aren't even pitching the Territory at the commercial market; they're pushing the Mondeo wagon. Some commercial buyers will make the move from Falcon to Mondeo (eg Hilti) but others will choose another vehicle (eg Telstra).

You might want to look into the dimensional and Fuel economy numbers of the Mondeo and Diesel Terri before defaulting to some of those assumptions.....

Also you dont need 198kw to drive passengers from point A to point B.....

flappist · 20-10-2011, 09:09 AM

Yeh Taxis are all about power, I have never see a camry or prius taxi and those maxi taxis with their 0-100km in under 2 seconds win every traffic light grand prix.......

AMGC63 · 20-10-2011, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Yeh Taxis are all about power, I have never see a camry or prius taxi and those maxi taxis with their 0-100km in under 2 seconds win every traffic light grand prix.......

LOL, spot on... i haven't read a logical argument yet as to why a Diesel Mondeo wagon or Terri isnt a suitable option for fleets or taxi's....

I think people need to look at the numbers a bit closer before defaulting to the "it wont do" position...

Brazen · 20-10-2011, 09:26 AM

um yeah, and a 2 tonne suv or a European built fwd are great substitutes for a Falcon taxi...

Phildo · 20-10-2011, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMGC63

You might want to look into the dimensional and Fuel economy numbers of the Mondeo and Diesel Terri before defaulting to some of those assumptions.....

Ask around amongst taxi management companies and workshops (I have). So far it's 100% unanimous that they'll be sticking with the Falcon sedan. A few private owners will explore other options (ie Mondeo, Territory, Commodore wagon) but the fleet companies are 100% about running costs, so will keep buying Falcon sedans.

With workshops, it's easy to have parts for Falcon sedans and wagons as they are basically the same car. Maintaining the back end of a wagon is easy, thanks to the leaf spring rear end. Just replace the shackle bushes occasionally, which is a lot less work and cost than the knuckle joints and diff bushes that the sedans go through.

Running Mondeos would double the requirements for parts and skills knowledge. And taxi workshop staff are pretty narrow minded about what they do. It's not about technology or advancement; it's about keeping it simple and working.

Familiarity is a common thing in the taxi world. It is has been using Falcons for decades, and won't just jump ship to another vehicle that doesn't have the track record for racking up hundreds of thousands of km easily. The Mondeo might be a fine car, but finding a supply of secondhand gearboxes will be just one of the problems. Getting a BA/BF gearbox is hard enough as it is, and there are a lot more Falcon wrecks around than Mondeos.

There are currently about 2,000 taxis in Perth. I am aware of two Territories. I see the blue one around regularly, but haven't seen the orange one for quite some time (it's based in Armadale). It might be that the owner has gone back to Falcon. There is a smal handful of VE Commodores, but only the one VE Commodore wagon (taxi 354, it hangs around Fremantle most of the time).

If I need a gearbox suddenly then I've got minutes or hours to find one, not days. It's not about calling wreckers and seeing who's got what, it's about calling one of the regular taxi places and taking the first one I can get.

I realise that it might sound like I'm sledging anything that's not a Falcon, but I am actually a taxi owner, and I have to analyse this stuff objectively. Personally, I'd much, much rather drive a VE Commodore, but a BF Falcon has the design and workshop support that I need.

It's simple business economics. The theoretical options are interesting, but when it comes to decision time, money talks. I need the lowest running cost and the highest revenue, hence I run a BFII wagon (wagons get more jobs).

Personally, I'll stick with a Falcon wagon as long as I can, but will ultimately have to switch to either Falcon sedan or Commodore wagon. As much as I hate my options, it's probably going to be Falcon sedan. The decision will depend on where there is enough specific demand for a wagon. I need to be able to turn up at a workshop, wait an hour or so in the queue, get the car fixed in half an hour to an hour and then be back on the road again. Falcon is the only option that will give me that.