6.5L/100km Hwy for Diesel Territory - Page 4

jpd80 · 10-03-2011, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPFS1

FG2 will not have EPAS as far as I know.

Is there a technical reason why EPAS is not being fitted to FG II or is it purely commercial?

Bossxr8 · 10-03-2011, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fairBA

Ford owns Land Rover,
Ford sells Land Rover to TATA in India,
TATA sells motor back to Ford,
$$$ to TATA,

I think Ford actually did the development work on the TDV6 with Puegeot, and I think they build it in the Dagenham plant too?

If thats the case Tata get nothing.

Bossxr8 · 10-03-2011, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

6R80 is a Ford design and not a copy of ZF .I remember when Lincoln Navigator was introduced with 6r80 and it was to replace ZF six speed.
It is probably to do with cost as ZF seems to be a benchmark for torque converter six speed autos.

I thought they are very similar, share the same ratios etc?

sgt_doofey · 10-03-2011, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I think Ford actually did the development work on the TDV6 with Puegeot, and I think they build it in the Dagenham plant too?

PSA are in bed with a lot of different manufacturers when it comes to diesel engines. BMW with the mini is another one on top of the Ford liaison off the top of my head.
I believe that the engine in the new T6 Ranger is also a collaboration with PSA as well.

SumoDog68 · 10-03-2011, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgt_doofey

PSA are in bed with a lot of different manufacturers when it comes to diesel engines. BMW with the mini is another one on top of the Ford liaison off the top of my head.
I believe that the engine in the new T6 Ranger is also a collaboration with PSA as well.

PSA are diesel engine experts and are basically selling their expertise.

SumoDog68 · 10-03-2011, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I thought they are very similar, share the same ratios etc?

It looks like you are right

http://www.bulkpart.com/Merchant2/gr...df/ZF6HP26.pdf

csv8 · 10-03-2011, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

EVERY single diesel in the country has a premium of over petrol. Why in gods names do you expect Tezza to be any different??

What I meant was,if it has a $10k difference in price over the petrol. Instead of $3-5k..it will put buyers off. Most Euros are only around $3k more than petrol models.

FordACE · 10-03-2011, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSV_LS1

The Terri will be a big seller I think. It may keep the production line very busy.
Who knows ford may have stock piled falcons because of expected demand on terri's and having them chocka block in the factory lol. We could dream I guess.

i am keen on a new diesel territory. Only thing which I think is silly is why is there no manual option. Surely we can have a diesel territory with a manual?

Bossxr8 · 10-03-2011, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

It looks like you are right

http://www.bulkpart.com/Merchant2/gr...df/ZF6HP26.pdf

I thought that was the case. The 6R80 is basically a Ford built version of the ZF 6 speed from what I can gather.

Obviously it would be cheaper for Ford to buy than the ZF unit. Don't know why Ford is only using it on the diesel and not the petrol though, maybe they have a locked in supply contract with ZF or something.

Bossxr8 · 10-03-2011, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FordACE

i am keen on a new diesel territory. Only thing which I think is silly is why is there no manual option. Surely we can have a diesel territory with a manual?

Territory was never designed for a manual, and considering the tiny numbers they would sell in they wouldn't do it. It would need a lot of work to do.

Only the XR's and FPV's have the option in Falcon and even then in only small numbers.

Bossxr8 · 10-03-2011, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csv8

What I meant was,if it has a $10k difference in price over the petrol. Instead of $3-5k..it will put buyers off. Most Euros are only around $3k more than petrol models.

Early talk was around 3-5k, would be less now with the strong aussie dollar. I think it will be around 2-3k.

Sorry, should have multi-quoted.

JPFS1 · 10-03-2011, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Is there a technical reason why EPAS is not being fitted to FG II or is it purely commercial?

jp, it's safe to say that's it's actually both, although I know of some interesting things that were being looked at to keep the IL6 competitive and viable, if what Ive been told is true regarding epas on IL6, then this could be a strong indicator that it's fallen through.

Hope i'm wrong of course.

vztrt · 10-03-2011, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

What's odd with diesel in oz is the price at he pump. Iirc, in Europe it's much cheaper than pulp hence it's popularity....here they are close enough to the same (around melba at least).

Diesel has 17.5c extra tax on it then petrol. Diesel was meant to be cheaper when the GST came in but the green brigade lobbied for it to be more expensive so people wouldn't all switch to diesel.

spvd02 · 10-03-2011, 07:57 PM

Not impressed. My parents were in the market for an AWD petrol Territory, and now they make it only available as a Diesel! In comparison to the petrol, the diesel will be boring - just begins to make power, then you've gotta change gears - Boring!

Why couldn't they maintain a petrol option - surely it would improve their sales! It's not like it costs them extra to make it available, as the technology is already there.

Only one engine/transmission option with the AWD Territory - Ridiculous! My parents may be looking elsewhere now, as the Ford I6 is a favourite, to the point they would hardly consider anything else. They're just too good.

smoo · 10-03-2011, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spvd02

Only one engine/transmission option with the AWD Territory - Ridiculous! My parents may be looking elsewhere now, as the Ford I6 is a favourite, to the point they would hardly consider anything else. They're just too good.

The I6 is just too good?? Until you put a decent load behind them and watch your bank accounts go dry. Close ratio ZF6 will do a good job of keeping the td V6 on boost. The days of sluggish gas guzzling 4.0 2 tonne SUV are over. No one will want it after the diesel arrives, especially when it returns 30% better fuel economy. In saying that I reckon the 4.0 turbo would be a nice range topper. I just hope that the diesel is not too little too late.

phillyc · 10-03-2011, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

They have done very well.

Getting the petrol version down to basically what the FG 5 speed auto was is very impressive.

Indeed they have done very well getting down to 10.6L/100km for the RWD petrol. The original FG 5spd was 10.5L/100km.

The very first SX RWD Territory was 13.1L/100km.
The most recent SY2 RWD Territory was 11.6L/100km released in May 2009. That took 5 full years to reduce 1.5L/100m.
Now it's down a full 1.0L/100km to 10.6L/100km in one hit! Thats just on 20% reduction in usage with a more powerful/torquey engine improved gearbox and better performance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

They have done very well.

The diesel 6 speed auto is a US built 6R80, a copy of the ZF built under license, whereas the petrol 6 speed auto is the full ZF as used in FG.

I agree with Swordy in this area. Which is that Ford NA want increased use of corporate parts, it also proves FoA can do this cost effectively. You have rightly said that it is a licensed Ford copy of the ZF.

Keeping the ZF behind the 4.0 means that less calibration work would be required, but I also bet that there are some volume numbers that have to be maintained too. When the ZF contract lapses, we may see the 6R80 behind the I6. Or they may just wait until the I6 is replaced by the Duratec in the next model GRWD / Falcon in 2015/16.

spvd02 · 10-03-2011, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoo

The I6 is just too good?? Until you put a decent load behind them and watch your bank accounts go dry. Close ratio ZF6 will do a good job of keeping the td V6 on boost. The days of sluggish gas guzzling 4.0 2 tonne SUV are over. No one will want it after the diesel arrives, especially when it returns 30% better fuel economy. In saying that I reckon the 4.0 turbo would be a nice range topper. I just hope that the diesel is not too little too late.

My I6, when towing 1.5 tonne was returning 14L/100km thankyou very much. A TD Patrol that I know of, towing a similar mass, returned 18L/100km. Not a bad performance from the petrol I6 is it?

Also, the RWD 6-speed Territory will own the Diesel version when it comes to acceleration. They are anything but sluggish! Which is why I refer to the Diesel as boring because, like any diesel, the fun is over as quickly as it began. It's the same sort of boring-ness as a CVT. It's great to be able to let an engine unwind. Diesels don't allow this, which is what makes them boring.

smoo · 10-03-2011, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spvd02

My I6, when towing 1.5 tonne was returning 14L/100km thankyou very much. A TD Patrol that I know of, towing a similar mass, returned 18L/100km. Not a bad performance from the petrol I6 is it?

Also, the RWD 6-speed Territory will own the Diesel version when it comes to acceleration. They are anything but sluggish! Which is why I refer to the Diesel as boring because, like any diesel, the fun is over as quickly as it began. It's the same sort of boring-ness as a CVT. It's great to be able to let an engine unwind. Diesels don't allow this, which is what makes them boring.

Were you towing downhill with a tail wind? Driving urban without economy in mind would see the 4.0 at 14l/100km without a trailer on. I average 10-12 around town in all Falcons I've had without towing. Towing over 1 tonne sees me at 18-22l/100km.
Most people don't care if driving a diesel is fun or not (infact the flat torque curve of the diesel will most likely give a better impression), the 4.0 hardly winds out at 6000rpm, and is far from fun to drive. Not like they have a choice but people will vote with their wallet and the thirsty I6 in a townie SUV isn't going to be the one they'll choose. I'd say if this diesel ever ends up in the Falcon then the trusty I6 wouldn't last 5 minutes.

spvd02 · 10-03-2011, 08:37 PM

Perth to Esperance and vice-versa = 14L/100km - with dual axle steel enclosed 8 by 5 trailer loaded with holiday gear, and 4 people on board.

BF Falcon, 4 spd auto (about the only let-down). And yes, it is fun to drive. Something is wrong with yours if it uses that much when towing. Just because your I6 is like that doesn't mean they're all bad. If running correctly they are great to drive - hard to beat. I stand by my opinion on that one.

Dr Smith · 10-03-2011, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spvd02

Perth to Esperance and vice-versa = 14L/100km - with dual axle steel enclosed 8 by 5 trailer loaded with holiday gear, and 4 people on board.

BF Falcon, 4 spd auto (about the only let-down). And yes, it is fun to drive. Something is wrong with yours if it uses that much when towing. Just because your I6 is like that doesn't mean they're all bad. If running correctly they are great to drive - hard to beat. I stand by my opinion on that one.

I'd say that it's more the Patrol is not efficient. Just today, paylod of 1150kg, through the Mornington Peninsula, 13 drop-offs, up hills, down hills, in a big rush so no hanging around and I managed 11.7L/100km (42km/hr avg) with a 128kW/400nm tdi (not-common rail) towing a 8x5 tandem with a van with A6 that weighs 2090kg empty.

SumoDog68 · 10-03-2011, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spvd02

My I6, when towing 1.5 tonne was returning 14L/100km thankyou very much. A TD Patrol that I know of, towing a similar mass, returned 18L/100km. Not a bad performance from the petrol I6 is it?

Also, the RWD 6-speed Territory will own the Diesel version when it comes to acceleration. They are anything but sluggish! Which is why I refer to the Diesel as boring because, like any diesel, the fun is over as quickly as it began. It's the same sort of boring-ness as a CVT. It's great to be able to let an engine unwind. Diesels don't allow this, which is what makes them boring.

There are plenty of I6 left so no need to worry. For most though diesel will be a better solution , more economical and just as quick. Diesel teams up with automatic tranny perfectly. So it is great move by Ford To present such a great powertrain Australian market.

Road_Warrior · 10-03-2011, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spvd02

Perth to Esperance and vice-versa = 14L/100km - with dual axle steel enclosed 8 by 5 trailer loaded with holiday gear, and 4 people on board.

BF Falcon, 4 spd auto (about the only let-down). And yes, it is fun to drive. Something is wrong with yours if it uses that much when towing. Just because your I6 is like that doesn't mean they're all bad. If running correctly they are great to drive - hard to beat. I stand by my opinion on that one.

Spot on there. I got 13.6L/100klm Perth-Kukerin-Perth over the weekend and that was towing a camper trailer, with 3 adults in the car and all their gear, plus with the air conditioner on full time. And that included a bit of furious overtaking at irresponsible speeds with all that load so as far as I'm concerned if you're getting upwards of 20L/100klm then there is something wrong with the car.

Perth-Carnarvon I've had 8.8L/100klm but that was without the load.

spvd02 · 10-03-2011, 10:17 PM

Yes it is great they have done so. However, they have introduced one at the expense of the other: one would question the logic in this case.

It would have been better to offer both. Ford themselves acknowledged that 40% of SUV sales are diesel. By deleting the petrol option, they haven't allowed for the other 60% of SUV buyers, which seems very silly, especially as they were in a position to continue to offer it.

JG34JA · 11-03-2011, 07:13 PM

No petrol AWD also surprised me. It makes ours suddenly a collectors item (jokes). The power/torque mix is ideal, it can be driven and towed economically (13.6L/100km average towing 1500kg van, loaded to about 1750kg or so). And, it actually split the drive front to rear wheels 37-63 constantly (correct me if I am wrong), far superior to many other 'FWD' AWD wagons that put torque forward on occasions when they detect slip and only then.
Regardless, the diesel seems an absolute cracker. I can't wait to see and compare it. Where else can you get the space, ride, refinement, dynamics, and now economy at this money? I'd say build quality too, but that appears to be confined to our example judging from some of the comments and pics here.
Dilemma: keep the old one as a loved horse put out to pasture, when offered ridiculous trade-in on the new diesel, and still buy the diesel if financially possible?

jpd80 · 11-03-2011, 08:12 PM

I think the take rate for I-6 was pretty low and expected to evaporate with the diesel now being offered,
one advantage is that I-6 and ZF is now RWD only and now common with FG version streamlining production.

While people are calling for diesel in Fg (me included) i think Ecoboost may surprise us and if Ford can pull
similar weight (30 Kg) out of FG shell and front cross member combined with 50 Kg reduction for I-4 EB
making the new econo Falcon just over 1600 Kg, close to the last Mondeo XR5T, interesting comparison there..

phillyc · 11-03-2011, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spvd02

Yes it is great they have done so. However, they have introduced one at the expense of the other: one would question the logic in this case.

It would have been better to offer both. Ford themselves acknowledged that 40% of SUV sales are diesel. By deleting the petrol option, they haven't allowed for the other 60% of SUV buyers, which seems very silly, especially as they were in a position to continue to offer it.

Ford were not necessarily in a position to offer both. The TDV6 now has the front axle / diff integrated into the sump. This allows for increased refinement and reduced weight.

By switching to this integrated arrangement, it would have meant the same would be required to be done to the I6. Since it isn't offered, they don't have to engineer, test and tool up for that AND they get to use exactly the same engine as FG. This is a further production cost / efficiency saving.

Essentially, the petrol I6 has now become the price leader for each spec. The diesel is the premium engine in each spec and has been offered in both RWD & AWD.

Will be interesting to see what the eventual splits of the models become! Very interesting.

SumoDog68 · 11-03-2011, 08:55 PM

I predict that diesel will account for min 60% of territory sales. 0-100 in diesel terri should be under 10s and fuel economy at least 30% better than petrol.
Hopefully they price it well...

jpd80 · 11-03-2011, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spvd02

It would have been better to offer both. Ford themselves acknowledged that 40% of SUV sales are diesel. By deleting the petrol option, they haven't allowed for the other 60% of SUV buyers, which seems very silly, especially as they were in a position to continue to offer it.

Ford expect that split to rise to 50/50 by the end of the year and keeping just the RWD petrol is a smart move
as the majority of Territorys at the moment are RWDs. So adding diesel to RWD and making AWD diesel only
will really chase the demographic they want and add to Territory's fuel efficient credentials.

I still think they should keep the AWD I-6 just for a while anyway just to see if it adds to sales as well.
I can understand Ford dropping it to streamline production of I-6 and RWD ZF only in Territory and Falcon,
that efficiency gain might be more than the 120 odd sales a month for the I-6 AWD variant..

Bobman · 11-03-2011, 09:28 PM

Would be good to see real-world figures of a liquid LPG system on the new Territory compared to the 2.7 litre Diesel.

phillyc · 11-03-2011, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

I think the take rate for I-6 AWD was pretty low and expected to evaporate with the diesel now being offered, one advantage is that I-6 and ZF is now RWD only and now common with FG version streamlining production.

It may not suit everyone. But, i think that overall Ford has made the right decision. In the end they have helped simplify the production side of things at the expense of what was 1 in 5 petrol SY2 Territory sales. Some of those AWD sales were probably because people wanted the ZF. Now that is standard in the RWD version you really have to wonder what the split would be. Also, Ford probably figure that if the premium for AWD & diesel is similar, more people would just choose the diesel which has a 6speed auto too!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

While people are calling for diesel in Fg (me included) i think Ecoboost may surprise us and if Ford can pull similar weight (30 Kg) out of FG shell and front cross member combined with 50 Kg reduction for I-4 EB making the new econo Falcon just over 1600 Kg, close to the last Mondeo XR5T, interesting comparison there..

I'm suprised they were able to pull that much from the Territory, but it is a sign of the mantra that is One Ford. They really want to pull weight out of vehicles where they can so that the vehicles can be the dynamic and economy leaders.

Pulling ~80kg out of the front of the FG is exactly where it needs to be pulled from. The standard I6 is a great handler. That EcoBoost is going to be one sweet handling car.