Why is Commodore still outselling Falcon??

[ef_classic]

My old Electronics teacher worked at both Holden and Ford in the factory.
He said he would never go near a Holden again cos of the way they build the cars.

If a part didnt "fit" they would swap it with another car till it did.

Iam sure there where better reasons than that though.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by Bucket

Yes, read my post again, i updated it.

No, Taxi sales do not even it out- Ford no longer offer the taxi pack and a majority of taxi drivers are still driving AU Falcons and will continue to until 500,000 or so Km's
Dont convince yourself that the BA Falcon Balances out VZ sales based on sales of Taxi's

They might not offer a taxi pack but you know they still buy them. And you also know that there are many BA's going around the country as taxis. My friends dad bought a VT Taxi and just updated it to a BA MK II. Know why he was hit from behind parked and the car was rolled. His work has more BA's then i have post's. Then ad some fleet sales it very close in the end.
Look everyone knows ford don't want the image of being a taxi car so they stopped offering the pack, But they still buy them. You can get factory fitted gas it's easy for them.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by ef_classic

My old Electronics teacher worked at both Holden and Ford in the factory.
He said he would never go near a Holden again cos of the way they build the cars.

If a part didnt "fit" they would swap it with another car till it did.

Iam sure there where better reasons than that though.

Wouldn't that be a supplier issue not Holden's build quality?.

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by new2ford

Having experienced ownership of a couple of Holdens I have no doubts why I would prefer a Ford. Sorry ESP, not all manufacturers are the same.

I feel that Commodore sales are larger because the govt is buying them for fleets to help save GM Aust from going down the gurgler. Private sales are possibly more the Falcon's way but someone with access to the stats would have to confirm that.

Don't get me wrong here, I prefer the FORD product as a personal "value" based decision..........But what is there that really separates these cars today. What is it about the FORD that has been "proven" SO MUCH better that it blows the HOLDEN away to the point where the average Joe going in to a dealership will HAVE to buy a FORD because it is so much better. There is just not enough separating these two products.........the line has blurred to the point where the average buyer sees the whole product as a FALCADORE anyways. More often than not it ain't the car that sways the decision, it's more likely going to be the sale deal and the ancillary services that go along with the ownership. It's like politics....the die hards will always vote for their disillusioned Party no matter what and the HUGE majority will be swinging voters ( read buyers ) based on what each new product has got to offer at that particular point in time............It's just intrinsic human nature that is very difficult to predict.

[XW_GS]

unfortunately since the the XD started i went to Commodore, i love my Fords but from the XD to the AU there was a gap for me, from the BA onwards the Ford fire relit again , next car after my VTII will be a BA+ ford. thats just me and no offence to XD-AU owners, not to say my love affair with Ford ended, just put on hold....

[Bucket]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

They might not offer a taxi pack but you know they still buy them. And you also know that there are many BA's going around the country as taxis. My friends dad bought a VT Taxi and just updated it to a BA MK II. Know why he was hit from behind parked and the car was rolled. His work has more BA's then i have post's. Then ad some fleet sales it very close in the end.
Look everyone knows ford don't want the image of being a taxi car so they stopped offering the pack, But they still buy them. You can get factory fitted gas it's easy for them.

No- once again, over all Ford dont produce that many E-Gas falcons and then even when it comes to private conversions, you have to allow for the queue up...rediculous waiting times for LPG to be fitted atm. Its probably something like 90% Petrol Falcons, 10% E-Gas (though im guessing its even less). Ford Cant produce as many commodores as Holden can and a Majority of Governments run Holden Commodores both MWB and LWB.
Theyre are no where near as many BA Taxi's on the road as there used to be AU's and those AU's are still on the Road today..A Majority of Taxi drivers will run them into the ground because it makes sense...they dont get much money back on their falcons because of the rediculously high K's. Most Government organisation put their fleet requests out to Tender, this means that you are pretty much guaranteed that Holden will beat Ford to the gong when it comes to fleet plans. It all comes down to the best offer, the bottom dollar and Holden can afford to sell their commodores at fleet prices that leasing companies or organisations would have to be stupid to turn their noses up at.

[Stoney!]

Originally Posted by ltd

A little quote taken from the age for the 4L60 and 4L65 Holden transmissions.

"There's more obsolete technology in Holden's Hydramatic automatic transmission.

Lacking the manual selection and full electronic control facilities of the Falcon's new Australian unit, it becomes vague and indecisive whenever the car is pushed. "

See how many rebuilds of trannies in Holden are done compared to ford before you espouse nonsense about the auto tranny Stoner.

This is Great!!! You guys have a thread, that asks a question (why is commodore still outselling falcon) and then when someone legitimatly trys to tell you about his experience with each brands sport six, you bag them out.... don't ask if you can't handle the truth.

Danny crane

[SSBUB]

you want the truth? you cant handle the truth!

[Bucket]

Originally Posted by Stoney!

This is Great!!! You guys have a thread, that asks a question (why is commodore still outselling falcon) and then when someone legitimatly trys to tell you about his experience with each brands sport six, you bag them out.... don't ask if you can't handle the truth.

Danny crane

And what is the Truth Mr. Crane?

[crustyman]

Originally Posted by new2ford

I feel that Commodore sales are larger because the govt is buying them for fleets to help save GM Aust from going down the gurgler. Private sales are possibly more the Falcon's way but someone with access to the stats would have to confirm that.

I work in a Govt organisation and have very close contact with our fleet manager, we have over 100 fleet cars and most of them are commodores, the reason is that we pay a company to tell us what models/makes to buy for best resale and we have been told to stay away from lower model falcons due to poor resale and demand. Basically dealers are not offering as much for Falcons as they are Commodores, the only Fords we have now are 1 XR6 and about 4 Territory's but otherwise the rest of the fleet is Commodores and the odd Toyota Ute.

I personally have owed 1 Ford and currently have a Holden, basically because my finances 5 years ago allowed for a VT or an AU and I'm sorry but even my EA seemed better than going to an AU :( I'm now looking for another car in the next couple of months and because of my good experience with my VT I'm naturally looking at Commodores again, I've taken the odd Falcon for a drive and unfortunately they just dont grab me like they used to, hopefully one day they'll sway me back to try another one but I think for me the next one will have a Holden badge.

[Creepy]

Just my 2 bobs worth.

The company I work for has over 400 AU Wagons, (all gas) and most have around 160,000 km on them.
They have had their usual warranty and service claims but as far as I know they have never had any major engine problems.

They are always fully loaded with parts and tools so they carry their max load all day every day.

Their running cost over the years is far less than the previous fleet.

These vehicles replaced a total Commodore fleet.


As they are all dew for replacement, Ford has agreed to build our company gas BF wagons, plus provide staff on car allowance a very good fleet discount.

What a lot of car buyers don't understand is the cost of running a car is just not fuel it is "Total cost of ownership" over the life of the vehicle.

Good on Ford for supporting the fleet buyers with good reliable vehicles.

Regards
Gary

P.S. Our fleet over the years I have been with the company (18 years) has been.
Camira wagons (bloody hell)
Magna wagons
Commodore wagons
Falcon wagons

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Bucket

No- once again, over all Ford dont produce that many E-Gas falcons and then even when it comes to private conversions, you have to allow for the queue up...rediculous waiting times for LPG to be fitted atm. Its probably something like 90% Petrol Falcons, 10% E-Gas (though im guessing its even less). Ford Cant produce as many commodores as Holden can and a Majority of Governments run Holden Commodores both MWB and LWB.
Theyre are no where near as many BA Taxi's on the road as there used to be AU's and those AU's are still on the Road today..A Majority of Taxi drivers will run them into the ground because it makes sense...they dont get much money back on their falcons because of the rediculously high K's. Most Government organisation put their fleet requests out to Tender, this means that you are pretty much guaranteed that Holden will beat Ford to the gong when it comes to fleet plans. It all comes down to the best offer, the bottom dollar and Holden can afford to sell their commodores at fleet prices that leasing companies or organisations would have to be stupid to turn their noses up at.

Since mid year last year the amount of E-gas Falcons and utes is growing to about 1 in 4 units a day. While that's only 25% as the fuel prices keep rising so will be the amount of e-gas falcons coming out of the factory.

[Crofty]

Interesting...

I actually thought Falcons were selling better then Commodores recently...

[nat_daly]

yeah same here.. lol

[Polyal]

Guys I think everyone is missing the point. Holden might sell more, but they sell them cheap. Id rather ford sell less fleet and sell more in the private segment. Why? A crap more cash and privates usually buy high series which have ALOT more profit in them.

Also holden discounting so heavily will hurt in the long run.

And for those two holden lovers, I had the opportunity to work with ford last year, and got to measure falcons vs commy, objectively and subjectively. Everytime, every attribute holden gets completely OWNED (except perhaps performance figures, they are very close). And its a damn fact that the BF XT rides just aswell as ANY sedan in the world.

And there inlies the problem, ford over engineer their cars, more money should be on spent on things average customers will notice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think the tide is turning, the XR6T can COMPLETELY be attributed to that. Its just these things take time. And its a damn shame Ford cannot kick Holden while they are down (VZ vs BF).

[MethodX]

As long as both companies survive and keep making the cars we love, does it really matter?

It would be tragic if either Ford or GM closed shop and we were left with Toyota.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Stoney!

This is Great!!! You guys have a thread, that asks a question (why is commodore still outselling falcon) and then when someone legitimatly trys to tell you about his experience with each brands sport six, you bag them out.... don't ask if you can't handle the truth.

Danny crane

Well Danny Crane, when someone starts espousing Holden problems but conveniently rebrands them as ford, they should expect that the members here are smart enough to know the difference between fact and supposition. I'm sure in a way you're right. It's just that no-one believes you, and your idea of right is out of step with everybody else in the world.

Seriously, what do you expect?
You come here with your pro holden propoganda and expect everyone here to let go of fact and the basic laws of the universe, for your goofed up euphoric plethora of rubbish based on "your alleged experiences" and obviously superior knowledge of the world of business.
Well, as a special today for you and all the Hoonden err Holden boys, here are some undisputed facts that have evidence to support them.

1/ The commodore has an antiquated tranny compared to Ford.
2/ The commodore IRS is not as good as Ford.
3/ The FE2 suspension in commodore dates back to 1988
4/ The global V6 did not woo the buyers of cars like predicted
5/ The Gen 3 was a venerable engine, yet was plagued with problems
6/ Holden have more quality issues than Ford
7/ Holden recently sacked over a thousand employees
8/ The only emotion experienced by fleets is monetary.
9/ Holden heavily discount their cars to fleets
10/ The current line up of Holdens cost less to manufacture than the equivalent Fords.
11/ Holden have had more recalls than Ford
12/ The VE will have most parts supplied by Korea
13/ The VE is heavier than the VZ
14/ GM in America is on the cusp of entering voluntary administration
15/ Delphi (a huge supplier to GM) is considering cutting supply to GM
16/ Most GM cars have a large portion of them assembled in Shanghai
17/ Ford sell more cars to private sales, Holden sell more to fleets
18/ There is no mechanical or structural advantage of a V6 over a I6
19/ The sheet metal used in Holden has been at least 0.1mm thinner than the equivalent Ford since the VN in 1988.
20/ Fleets only buy Holden over a cheaper running toyota due to the heavily discounted purchase price. Toyota holds it value better.

These are all FACTS, not supposition which I can provide proof for.

Here is some supposition for you;

HOLDEN MEAN A GREAT DEAL TO KOREA.

[Polyal]

I dont think "my mates dogs falcon/commy" has issues can be used, both manufacurers (actually all BMW and merc included) DO build lemons.

[MethodX]

Does that mean Ford mean a great del to South Africa and Thailand?

[ltd]

Originally Posted by MethodX

Does that mean Ford mean a great del to South Africa and Thailand?

Whatever floats your boat.

Oh BTW, I haven't yet heard ford advertise who their cars mean a great deal to. Care to enlighten me?

[SSBUB]

Originally Posted by ltd

Well Danny Crane, when someone starts espousing Holden problems but conveniently rebrands them as ford, they should expect that the members here are smart enough to know the difference between fact and supposition. I'm sure in a way you're right. It's just that no-one believes you, and your idea of right is out of step with everybody else in the world.

Seriously, what do you expect?
You come here with your pro holden propoganda and expect everyone here to let go of fact and the basic laws of the universe, for your goofed up euphoric plethora of rubbish based on "your alleged experiences" and obviously superior knowledge of the world of business.
Well, as a special today for you and all the Hoonden err Holden boys, here are some undisputed facts that have evidence to support them.

1/ The commodore has an antiquated tranny compared to Ford.
2/ The commodore IRS is not as good as Ford.
3/ The FE2 suspension in commodore dates back to 1988
4/ The global V6 did not woo the buyers of cars like predicted
5/ The Gen 3 was a venerable engine, yet was plagued with problems
6/ Holden have more quality issues than Ford
7/ Holden recently sacked over a thousand employees
8/ The only emotion experienced by fleets is monetary.
9/ Holden heavily discount their cars to fleets
10/ The current line up of Holdens cost less to manufacture than the equivalent Fords.
11/ Holden have had more recalls than Ford
12/ The VE will have most parts supplied by Korea
13/ The VE is heavier than the VZ
14/ GM in America is on the cusp of entering voluntary administration
15/ Delphi (a huge supplier to GM) is considering cutting supply to GM
16/ Most GM cars have a large portion of them assembled in Shanghai
17/ Ford sell more cars to private sales, Holden sell more to fleets
18/ There is no mechanical or structural advantage of a V6 over a I6
19/ The sheet metal used in Holden has been at least 0.1mm thinner than the equivalent Ford since the VN in 1988.
20/ Fleets only buy Holden over a cheaper running toyota due to the heavily discounted purchase price. Toyota holds it value better.

These are all FACTS, not supposition which I can provide proof for.

Here is some supposition for you;

HOLDEN MEAN A GREAT DEAL TO KOREA.

these arent all facts:
1/ The commodore has an antiquated tranny compared to Ford. - Granted
2/ The commodore IRS is not as good as Ford. - opinion but valid
3/ The FE2 suspension in commodore dates back to 1988 - dont know
4/ The global V6 did not woo the buyers of cars like predicted - was it supposed to? the ecotec aint bad, and plenty still going ok
5/ The Gen 3 was a venerable engine, yet was plagued with problems - had piston slap issues with earlier models - hardly call that plagued. My earlier model gen 3 has done 115k no probs yet
6/ Holden have more quality issues than Ford - opinion
7/ Holden recently sacked over a thousand employees - true
8/ The only emotion experienced by fleets is monetary - opinion but prob true
9/ Holden heavily discount their cars to fleets - true
10/ The current line up of Holdens cost less to manufacture than the equivalent Fords. - prob true
11/ Holden have had more recalls than Ford - unsure, will take your word
12/ The VE will have most parts supplied by Korea - thought it was the US?
13/ The VE is heavier than the VZ - supposedly true
14/ GM in America is on the cusp of entering voluntary administration - unkown
15/ Delphi (a huge supplier to GM) is considering cutting supply to GM - true


etc etc etc


you see my point...alot of opinions there....an no im not propergating pro-holden, just telling it as it is

[XA-Coupe]

This is just getting boring .... there better be some value injected into this thread or the switch gets turned off.

[Bucket]

Originally Posted by SSBUB

these arent all facts:
1/ The commodore has an antiquated tranny compared to Ford. - Granted
2/ The commodore IRS is not as good as Ford. - opinion but valid
3/ The FE2 suspension in commodore dates back to 1988 - dont know
4/ The global V6 did not woo the buyers of cars like predicted - was it supposed to? the ecotec aint bad, and plenty still going ok
5/ The Gen 3 was a venerable engine, yet was plagued with problems - had piston slap issues with earlier models - hardly call that plagued. My earlier model gen 3 has done 115k no probs yet
6/ Holden have more quality issues than Ford - opinion
7/ Holden recently sacked over a thousand employees - true
8/ The only emotion experienced by fleets is monetary - opinion but prob true
9/ Holden heavily discount their cars to fleets - true
10/ The current line up of Holdens cost less to manufacture than the equivalent Fords. - prob true
11/ Holden have had more recalls than Ford - unsure, will take your word
12/ The VE will have most parts supplied by Korea - thought it was the US?
13/ The VE is heavier than the VZ - supposedly true
14/ GM in America is on the cusp of entering voluntary administration - unkown
15/ Delphi (a huge supplier to GM) is considering cutting supply to GM - true


etc etc etc


you see my point...alot of opinions there....an no im not propergating pro-holden, just telling it as it is

Seemed like a majority of Fact in there though

The VE is having a majority of its parts outsourced for cost cutting.. two of those being China and Korea.

[phoon]

When I took my car in for its 3000km courtesy check up, I said I would wait for the car, it had been booked in for 2 weeks prior. I sat in the waiting room for 5 hours and I could see my car through the window. 4hr and 55minutes into the wait, they drove it into the workshop. 5 minutes later they drove it out and it had been throughh the car wash as well. So, by my reckoning, 4 minutes through the car wash to make you feel like they did something and 1 minute to do the courtesy check. I squealed like a stuck pig to them, but to no avail. Never been back to that dealer since, but I suspect they are all the same.

[phoon]

Originally Posted by mik

holden are and have been more agressive in their marketing ,and too a degree parents choices are handed down to the kids in my book.

Exactly

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by SSBUB

6/ Holden have more quality issues than Ford - opinion

Statistically this is true. While the series 1 BA had it's faults (like every VT had) Fords do actually have less claims than Holden. The Current BF is the most reliable Ford out there and is better than the AU which held that title.

[Crofty]

Guys,

why do I feel everyone here is making excuses about falcon not selling as much as commodore..

yes i own a commodore... but im not one sided like most... i like my falcons aswell..

but its just, if holden really are as crud as most are saying with their quality issues and all, then holden SHOULD not be in the place it is now... and if im wrong then consumers/customers arent good at choosing what they want to buy...

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Crofty

Guys,

why do I feel everyone here is making excuses about falcon not selling as much as commodore..

yes i own a commodore... but im not one sided like most... i like my falcons aswell..

but its just, if holden really are as crud as most are saying with their quality issues and all, then holden SHOULD not be in the place it is now... and if im wrong then consumers/customers arent good at choosing what they want to buy...

Just because something is popular with the masses doesn't make it good....

[ltd]

SSBUB, I have sources for my statements, but the difference is you have not taken everything I wrote and disputed it for the sake of it, you are mature enough to agree that even some of it is true.
I'm not going to sit here and say Ford is king, because there are issues I have with ford too. But I'm also not going to sit here and say that there are no wrongs with Ford, because to my mind that is insane. Some members of this forum have taken the opinion however that Ford can do no right, Holden are better in every area. This attitude I take exception to.

[nat_daly]

Originally Posted by Crofty

Guys,

why do I feel everyone here is making excuses about falcon not selling as much as commodore..

may have something to do with this being a FORD forums, so yes people are going to be rather biased towards falcons, but do you blame them? such beautiful cars..
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