The Stupidity at the scene of the Werribee car smash has reached a new hight.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by sudszy

You are half right, there were some f16s that did a flyover, but that wasnt the main event, it involved some cars without mudguards going very very fast on closed public roads, the one last year where one of the driver's whinged about the nanny state when one of the touring "hoons" got busted for burnouts.

so accidents only happen in march do they

motor racing only exists because people like to drive fast - people do not drive fast because motor racing exists

i am sure they happened in an area that has had a speed camera too. assuming there was no speed camera at the point of impact, could we assume that they only drove fast because the threat of a fine in the mail had passed and with no police presence it was flat out all the way

generalising does not help the cause at hand - in fact some generalising causes more harm, because the real reasons are hidden by agendas

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

so accidents only happen in march do they

motor racing only exists because people like to drive fast - people do not drive fast because motor racing exists

i am sure they happened in an area that has had a speed camera too. assuming there was no speed camera at the point of impact, could we assume that they only drove fast because the threat of a fine in the mail had passed and with no police presence it was flat out all the way

generalising does not help the cause at hand - in fact some generalising causes more harm, because the real reasons are hidden by agendas

To be honest, he does kind of have a point - just step out to every racing event...Bathurst, even local events. Kids (and even adults) develop an attitude that if the race drivers can do it, so can they - despite the fact that they have nowhere near enough skills to do such a thing.

Add to that, bravado/booze/women/mates...and you've got a recipe for disaster...

I didn't see this being a speed camera debate either...

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

To be honest, he does kind of have a point - just step out to every racing event...Bathurst, even local events. Kids (and even adults) develop an attitude that if the race drivers can do it, so can they - despite the fact that they have nowhere near enough skills to do such a thing

i am sorry but there is no point at all

the assumption made is as pointless as cigarette sponsorship encourages people to smoke

the grand prix has been here since 85 and yet surprise, surprise the road toll was much higher before it got here, than it is now

people do not need to go to a racetrack to be encouraged to drive in a stupid manner. they only have to sit in a car with their mates

the people that have no regard for other's safety will not suddenly become model citizens if there was no motor sport. they will still have no regard at all and still drive like idiots. having an event around does not change their behaviour



the attitude you described is obvious long before anyone sees a racetrack. maybe computer games are a culprit too - probably more so. i have always driven in a very conservative mode and yet my earliest memory from the age of 4 was watching touring cars. i have been to bathurst, adelaide and melbourne more times than i haven't and yet i am not a hoon - go figure

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

i am sorry but there is no point at all

the assumption made is as pointless as cigarette sponsorship encourages people to smoke

the grand prix has been here since 85 and yet surprise, surprise the road toll was much higher before it got here, than it is now

people do not need to go to a racetrack to be encouraged to drive in a stupid manner. they only have to sit in a car with their mates

the people that have no regard for other's safety will not suddenly become model citizens if there was no motor sport. they will still have no regard at all and still drive like idiots. having an event around does not change their behaviour

I highly doubt the suggestion was to can motorsport - just that it can be a mitigating factor in some of these situations. It may not be the case in this instance, the only people who know that answer, are dead.

As far off topic as it is, cigarette advertising actually did cause a lot of people to take up the habit - because their role model was doing it, and because it was cool - it's called peer pressure for the most part.

1985 was quite a long time ago, back when cars didn't have the safety features they have today, back when 0.05 regulations were still relatively new - so yeah, the road toll is lower than it was then. I'm not quite sure where you're trying to go with that but it's not relevant.

A death toll has very little to do with those who decide to go out and speed or do burnouts and don't die.

I'm not trying to argue with you here, but on leaving the dragstrips I used to frequent, the proportion of P platers (and some fully licenced) exiting the ground sideways...was fairly high. It can and does have an effect on those who aren't quite bright to start off with.

[SEZ213]

I honestly don't know that computer games are a culprit, I'd say there's something missing, one as has been mentioned is respect...and as blunt as LTD is...exactly what he said...

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

I highly doubt the suggestion was to can motorsport - just that it can be a mitigating factor in some of these situations. It may not be the case in this instance, the only people who know that answer, are dead.

the suggestion was in bad taste considering the gravity of the 2 incidents. was there alcohol involved in one of them??

Originally Posted by Sezzy

As far off topic as it is, cigarette advertising actually did cause a lot of people to take up the habit - because their role model was doing it, and because it was cool - it's called peer pressure for the most part.

from 1976 when i was 7 until 2006 when 37 at least on of my heroes was sponsored by cigarettes each year. in 1993, all 4 of my drivers were sponsored by them and yet i did not take up the habit. if someone is going to smoke, then cigarette advertising on cars will not influence them one way or the other

Originally Posted by Sezzy

1985 was quite a long time ago, back when cars didn't have the safety features they have today, back when 0.05 regulations were still relatively new - so yeah, the road toll is lower than it was then. I'm not quite sure where you're trying to go with that but it's not relevant.

very true, but if the grand prix can be used as a potential mitigating factor for these accidents, then it is not unreasonable for me to suggest the road toll as i did. both the mitagating factor of the grand prix and the road toll i suggested mean nothing in the overall scheme of things, but if one can cherry pick, then the other should be able to as well

Originally Posted by Sezzy

I'm not trying to argue with you here, but on leaving the dragstrips I used to frequent, the proportion of P platers (and some fully licenced) exiting the ground sideways...was fairly high. It can and does have an effect on those who aren't quite bright to start off with.

very true. i am not trying to argue either, but the people who drive like idiots will do so whether they are leaving a motorsport venue or not. you only need to see the status lines around most areas nowadays to realise the morons will be tools no matter how far away they are from a motorsport venue. when i was younger i drove like a little old lady - my interest in motorsport has always been huge. alot of my mates lost their licenses, but their interest in motorsport - zero

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

I honestly don't know that computer games are a culprit, I'd say there's something missing, one as has been mentioned is respect...and as blunt as LTD is...exactly what he said...

the car games would have more effect on young people picking up bad habits than a motorsport event

you are very correct with respect, and ltd's post was spot on

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

the car games would have more effect on young people picking up bad habits than a motorsport event

you are very correct with respect, and ltd's post was spot on

I would hazard a guess and suggest you were brought up in a decent household where you were taught right from wrong. Your ability to not smoke, despite the advertising is admirable, but there are many out there who are incredibly impressionable and don't have quite as much intestinal fortitude when it comes to making their own decisions (be they right or wrong) and sometimes because their family hasn't taught them right from wrong. And sadly, they're the kids who end up in these kinds of situations. The posts on here are right, making excuses for them is just a cop out, it doesn't solve the issue...so what does? And more to the point, does anyone care enough to do anything about it?

[Ford_The_Win]

Yet another one of society's knuckle draggers puts lives in danger...take note of the make and model of car...

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mor...-1226034096317

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

The posts on here are right, making excuses for them is just a cop out, it doesn't solve the issue...so what does? And more to the point, does anyone care enough to do anything about it?

in my opinion, the tragedy is that those who can do something about it will not because they either have no real world experience as to why people do what is considered anti social activities - or by looking beyond the easy answer, they will not get re-elected

of course ltd's post and one of flappist's posts a while ago about a little tablet being introduced to society give some hints as to why these tradegies will continue

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

in my opinion, the tragedy is that those who can do something about it will not because they either have no real world experience as to why people do what is considered anti social activities - or by looking beyond the easy answer, they will not get re-elected

of course ltd's post and one of flappist's posts a while ago about a little tablet being introduced to society give some hints as to why these tradegies will continue

There was an article written some time back regarding the 'thrill seeking' behaviour of young adults, and why they did it...however in light of the recent article that's been posted here, I'm not so sure it's just adolescents that are the problem.

It seems there's a rational thought process that gets left out when some people get into cars. I don't know why, but I do know one thing - the focus will become a blanket for all people...even the ones who are doing the right thing.

The problem then becomes people crying about a nanny state, because a small portion of the population can't or won't take responsibility for their actions. I don't think it's just the 'bogan' mentality either - the unfortunate truth is these people come from all walks of life, not just the lower socioeconomic class.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

There was an article written some time back regarding the 'thrill seeking' behaviour of young adults, and why they did it...however in light of the recent article that's been posted here, I'm not so sure it's just adolescents that are the problem.

clive james narrated some grand prix review videos. his comments on ricardo paletti's death in canada 82 were words to the effect of
"there is truth in danger, not all of it, but some of it - and you cannot stop young men from trying to find it. and paletti came to the end of his search awfully early"

in my opinion his words were, pretty much spot on. the same words can be used for so many people who have unfortunately lost their lives through accidents




but you are right - it isn't just young men who are searching, it is a much broader problem than that

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

so accidents only happen in march do they

well no, so case dismissed? there is your reasoning that that the motor race had no effects on the mindset of these individuals and could not have possibly influenced how they chose to drive motor cars?

Perhaps look at the cold stats here, 26th March(car driven by young people slams into tree at high speed, three people dead), 27th March(Gran Prix race), 29th March (two people dead, three critically injured, tree hit at high speed).

Perhaps you can find another time in Victoria's history that we had two such senseless slayings of young people killed in near identical fashion happen this close to each other?

Coincidence, it could be, but probability says these two events just happening by chance so close together and within two days either side of the world's premier motoring event held nearby as more than just coincidence.

Originally Posted by gtxb67

motor racing only exists because people like to drive fast - people do not drive fast because motor racing exists

That possibly is true, but exposing people to an activity doesnt increase participation/interest?

Originally Posted by gtxb67

generalising does not help the cause at hand - in fact some generalising causes more harm,

when does looking at all possibilities equal generalising?

Originally Posted by gtxb67

because the real reasons are hidden by agendas

Yes, one organisation may well be keeping a little quiet on that front, considering they chose to be a presence at the event: http://www.tac.vic.gov.au/jsp/conten...ll&pageID=2108

Originally Posted by gtxb67

from 1976 when i was 7 until 2006 when 37 at least on of my heroes was sponsored by cigarettes each year. in 1993, all 4 of my drivers were sponsored by them and yet i did not take up the habit. if someone is going to smoke, then cigarette advertising on cars will not influence them one way or the other

So there is your proof that cigarette advertising has no effect on people taking up smoking?

Tobacco companies sponsored Formula one teams out of the goodness of their hearts?

Perhaps you are going to argue the case that Tobacco companies are only looking to change smokers from brand A to brand B? you do realise that there are only a few companies that put out all the different Brands and that smoker's generally stick with the one brand once addicited?

Cigarette advertising is all about renewing the customer base:getting new suckers(impressionable young people) hooked on the habit to replace the ones that drop of the perch.
linking their product with successful people, popular/cool activities and fame. F1 fitted the bill nicely

Advertising is a numbers game, most of us will not take in what is being sold etc, it only has to influence a small % of the population for a product to be successful. Likewise most of us will not drive like morons just because we watched the F1 came to town or take up smoking because Michael Schumacher had Malboro plasted all over himself and his car(in the past I know), but to deny an event that displays very fast cars with all that publicity and fanfare and that it couldnt possibly influence the behaviour of some when they get behind the wheel of a car?, not reasonable logic...in my opinion.

[Kryton]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Perhaps you can find another time in Victoria's history that we had two such senseless slayings of young people killed in near identical fashion happen this close to each other?

October 30 2010 Warrnambool.
3 dead:
2 motorcyclist
1 driver

No motorsport events were on at that time, no local events or gatherings but there must have been a general related cause by your thoughts.
No.

1 car driver ran off the road and died (wasnt speeding, drinking or on P's - fell asleep i think - cant find the story).

1 motorcyclist hit by vehicle in industrial estate - personal friend.
Wasnt drinking, speeding, or doing anything wrong.
Leaving the industrial estate, a 4WD turned into the path of him and he T-boned the side, killing him - not his fault - not related to any other death that day.
http://www.standard.net.au/news/loca...k/1983329.aspx

1 motorcyclist dead:
Drunk, no helmet, early hours of the morning doing burnouts and riding dangerously on a quadbike (from memory).
this the "tribute" his like minded mates left him (lower class bogans):
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/ho...111-17nzo.html

So, there is an example of 3 llocally ost lives within hours of each other that have zero relevance to each other.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by davway

So, there is an example of 3 llocally ost lives within hours of each other that have zero relevance to each other.

It would appear so, but all you have done is listed events that happened close to each other in time and space, they are not examples of past occurences of senseless slayings of FIVE YOUNG people being killed in near identical situations.

Obviously some people are going to get very precious and blindsided about any suggestion that everything about motor racing is not all good( i realise there must be many motor sport fans here), but please dont let that get in your way of rationally analysing the timing and character of these incidents.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

Yet puts lives in danger...take note of the make and model of car...

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mor...-1226034096317

perhaps take note of model and car with this example of "another one of society's knuckle draggers": http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/fiv...-1225820452302

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by sudszy

So there is your proof that cigarette advertising has no effect on people taking up smoking?

no proof - just personal experience
no studies, no hidden agendas - just personal experience

and yes, i was up every second sunday cheering on michael schumacher - but i have never actually lit up a camel, mild seven or marlboro cigarette. in fact looking back at old pictures, i never once had the urge to light up a west either. nor rothmans, camel & marlboro again, peter jackson, peter stuyvesant either

i have purchased a packet of gitanes back when i was 17 because jacques laffite (and the novelty that they were imported) was sponsored by them, but as of today they are still a full packet


once again sudszy, just personal experience - and that goes for hooning when a grand prix meeting is on too. since you do not like motor racing and i do, i think my take on things would be more accurate. before you tell me that you do like motor racing - you have an impeccable driving record; correct. and yet grand prix' encourage people to drive like idiots; correct - you are not a fan and therefore have no personal experience - no amount of studies will do anything to prove otherwise; case closed

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by sudszy

perhaps take note of model and car with this example of "another one of society's knuckle draggers": http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/fiv...-1225820452302

please show more respect for the dead and their families - i would expect a holier than now creature to be above pointless generalising and name calling

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

no proof - just personal experience
no studies, no hidden agendas - just personal experience

and yes, i was up every second sunday

So correct me if I have got this wrong:

If you personally are affected/not affected by anything, then that can be then claimed for the entire population because its "personal experience", cart blanche to claim anything you feel like?

Originally Posted by gtxb67

no studies, no hidden agendas

Your personal experience overrides any statistics/facts provided by any organisation /persons because they have "hidden agendas"

Just for interest, what do you believe the possible "hidden agendas" could be in governments across the world stopping/restricting cigarette advertising?

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

please show more respect for the dead and their families - i would expect a holier than now creature to be above pointless generalising and name calling

Most will realise(since I DID QUOTE HIM) that I was responding to "Ford_The_Win's" post earlier in the thread where he introduced the term ""another one of society's knuckle draggers" in order to have a go at Holden drivers.

My response was in jest(hopefully obvious to everyone), using his phrase and a picture of a Ford.

However, in retropsect, I agree, using the mill park photo was insensitive and apologise to all.

At this stage I cant find another pic of a derailed Ford to throw in there where people may not have been killed, so please delete that post so it causes no further grief, thankyou.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by davway

1 motorcyclist dead:
Drunk, no helmet, early hours of the morning doing burnouts and riding dangerously on a quadbike (from memory).
this the "tribute" his like minded mates left him (lower class bogans):
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/ho...111-17nzo.html

If it was a quad bike, how the hell can they call it a road death, it's not a registerable vehicle and shouldnt be on the road.
It's not a death resulting from normal road use.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by MAD

If it was a quad bike, how the hell can they call it a road death, it's not a registerable vehicle and shouldnt be on the road.
It's not a death resulting from normal road use.

According to police, it was a trail bike. He had a passenger on the back as well. My understanding is that it doesn't matter if it shouldn't be on the road, it was, and therefore is classified as a road death.

Sudzy, I can actually understand what you're getting at, however, I wouldn't bother, you're wasting your time.

[compact 351]

its not the type of car they drive or the erea they live in,its not the way they have been brought up???maybe its the generation with the attitude of i dont give a sh///t

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by sudszy

You are half right, there were some f16s that did a flyover, but that wasnt the main event, it involved some cars without mudguards going very very fast on closed public roads, the one last year where one of the driver's whinged about the nanny state when one of the touring "hoons" got busted for burnouts.

Yeah, I know, I was being facetious.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by sudszy

So correct me if I have got this wrong:

If you personally are affected/not affected by anything, then that can be then claimed for the entire population because its "personal experience", cart blanche to claim anything you feel like?

correction starting - i did not say that i wasn't affected by it. i suggested i was very unlikely to smoke in the first place - therefore the advertising in motorsport did not make me want to start
i was not going to hoon in the first place - therefore the motorsport events did not make me start

the people who smoke now were very likely to start anyway - so advertising in motorsport did not make them start
the people who hoon were very likely to hoon anyway - so no motorsport events made them start

what is so hard to understand about it



the hidden agenda part had nothing to do with cigarette sponsorship - if you are unsure what i am talking about, then ask many of the aff members

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by compact 351

its not the type of car they drive or the erea they live in,its not the way they have been brought up???maybe its the generation with the attitude of i dont give a sh///t

The problem with that theory is that there are many people on the road (and on here) that don't have that attitude.

Road toll statistics indicate something a little more sinister of late...and that is that the % of gen Y's is being overrepresented in this data, not the 18-25 year olds. Remembering that Gen Y encompasses those who are in their early 30's now...

The "I don't give a s***" attitude doesn't just encompass this demographic (as we've recently seen), it's a more wide spread problem than that.

The debate can rage on as to whether kids are influenced by things, smoking, car racing, whatever. The truth of the matter is that young people are highly impressionable (and at times irresponsible). To use a blanket approach that one person didn't, so it's not relevant - is asinine to say the least. There are many people out there who ARE in fact influenced by these kinds of things, whether we like to admit it or not.

I don't have a hidden agenda, I'd like to not see this kind of thing happening on the roads day in and day out - but my idealism is fast running out, and I'm just left perplexed as to why this behaviour takes place. Sure, there's thrill seeking, but this is fast becoming reckless endangerment and the roads are becoming a scarier and scarier place to be. So be they coerced into this behaviour by their mates, or if they're trying to enact their favourite scene from GTA4 or their favourite car racer, the fact is it's happening...once again, whether we like to admit it or not.

The thing is that these people are fast becoming the stereotype - and they're the kind of people who are impressionable, irresponsible and apparently bullet proof until an event such as this happens. So unless you can change the psychological make up of a person to try to 'fit in'...we're all s*** out of luck. To see whether this kind of advertising has any impact, all you have to do is look at marketing statistics, it's not really that much of a silly suggestion.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

So be they coerced into this behaviour by their mates, or if they're trying to enact their favourite scene from GTA4

Video games played a big part of my life and still do, but I haven't been tempted not even once to steal an icecream truck and run over a bunch of school kids like I did multiple times in GTA2.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Video games played a big part of my life and still do, but I haven't been tempted not even once to steal an icecream truck and run over a bunch of school kids like I did multiple times in GTA2.

that is interesting and conclusive. did they make you aware of hazards on the side of the road?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

that is interesting and conclusive. did they make you aware of hazards on the side of the road?

If that was a reference to my car accident, well if I was trying to read hazards on the side of the road, I'd be doing 5km/h down the Tullamarine freeway, because its not everyday someone punches it in reverse across a freeway.

I was just being sarcastic as video games are everyones scapegoat now for stupid behavior, before it was mothers against rap and before then it was mothers against rock.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

If that was a reference to my car accident, well if I was trying to read hazards on the side of the road, I'd be doing 5km/h down the Tullamarine freeway, because its not everyday someone punches it in reverse across a freeway.

I was just being sarcastic as video games are everyones scapegoat now for stupid behavior, before it was mothers against rap and before then it was mothers against rock.

it was to some extent. it made much more sense when i first posted, but not long after, i had wished i didn't

i missed the sarcasm, but even if there was none, my post would have come out much more personal than i meant, so i apologise