January motor: what happened to the pro holden bias?

[MrSparkle]

Originally Posted by Sledgehammer

Put it back in your pants.........

Are you ready for your ride?

Yes sir! :Reverend:

Interesting read actually (for those in Sydney CBD, you can get it on the Tuesday arvo before release at the newsagent right near the turnstyles at Wynyard station). It's not only the GTS that had some surprising results re. numbers, I was surprised at the high numbers on the STi, 350z, and equally impressed by the performance of the Z4M.

For the locals, yet another great performance for the F6 - these seem to be consistently strong in all the recent articles they are in, which is pretty much goes against the typical see-saw "flavour of the month" we normally see with local performance cars - great one month and rubbish the next. Well done to FPV on this front!

Now, back to the RS4... good lord what a sexy beast - there's a black one in the CBD that I catch probably three days every week, driving down Hunter St and into Pitt, and I fear that one day I might just have to stop and carjack him. :sm_drool: :

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by flappist

Gee you do a lot of thinking......

According to HSV.com.au a GTS auto is $76990 RRP but when I looked at one a few weeks ago it was offered to me at $80k on road.

80K on road? geez, older GTS owners must be absolutely thrilled that HSV have dropped the GTS price by 25K...
Great Job by the F6 though!

[Falc'man]

HSV's claims (0-100km/h in 4.96s) are so difficult to achieve, they (HSV) will give the journo who beats that time a bottle of champaign. Good luck.
And my point is this. Why on earth would HSV claim these times for the GTS if its so flamin hard to achieve them? Surely, its not hard to go out, do a couple of real world runs, and record whatever time they come up with, and whack those same times on their website. And then after a fews years of consistency( with journo times ), I might start believing what they claim.
If its slower or if its faster than an F6 by a tenth or two, who cares? I personally don't give a rat's. But the least HSV/Holden could do is stop the BS.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ex.taxi

HSV's claims (0-100km/h in 4.96s) are so difficult to achieve, they (HSV) will give the journo who beats that time a bottle of champaign. Good luck.
And my point is this. Why on earth would HSV claim these times for the GTS if its so flamin hard to achieve them? Surely, its not hard to go out, do a couple of real world runs, and record whatever time they come up with, and whack those same times on their website. And then after a fews years of consistency( with journo times ), I might start believing what they claim.
If its slower or if its faster than an F6 by a tenth or two, who cares? I personally don't give a rat's. But the least HSV/Holden could do is stop the BS.

hmmm.. after the events of sunday im seeing a trend, maybe there's something wrong with the water down at Clayton, everything that comes out of there at the moment is "on the nose" so to speak..

[MeestaNob!]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

80K on road? geez, older GTS owners must be absolutely thrilled that HSV have dropped the GTS price by 25K...
Great Job by the F6 though!

$80K is probably a fairer approximation of the cars value to a consumer. $100k is absurd for an Australian built car, no matter how much power and how many pretty toys it has.

If someone willingly paid $100K for it, they ripped themselves off.

That said, the ol' GTS was (and still is) an absolute tarmack shredding beast. A very good car. Not $100K (or $80, I reckon) worth though.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

hmmm.. after the events of sunday im seeing a trend, maybe there's something wrong with the water down at Clayton, everything that comes out of there at the moment is "on the nose" so to speak..

I'm not worried about their water, I think its more to do with the smell of burnt clutches getting to their heads.
Yeah, what about the resale on old GTSs, reminds me of standard GEN3 VTII exec whipping the VT GTS. I would've been fuming if I bought GTS VTI back then.

[Tiapan]

haha great job flappist! wow i didnt know aussie cars were competing so well against its international cars!

if you really look at it....the f6 is probaly the best car there for daily driving, the cheapest for performance and better than the rest cuz of the ford badge!

[Ives]

Originally Posted by photn

so how about the XR5T............How cool is that!!!!!!!

Focus XR5T
0-100kph - 7.5sec
0-400m - 15.3sec @ 153.8kph
0-1000m - 27.4sec @ 196.2kph
Winton Lap Time - 1.46.00

"XR5T is light in the steering, so you can wind on too much lock entering the corner. There's a lot of initial understeer, but it grips well mid-corner. The engine's got bucketloads of torque and it's very driveable. The ABS cuts in early so it's unsettled over bumps."

--Warren Luff

[Sapper]

The astute among you will notice that there was a complete reversal of the results of the EVO IX compared to the STi and 350Z from the heat to the final. Go figure.

[Flaming Mo]

Originally Posted by flappist

As you are new to the forum I will assist you a bit here.

Do a bit of research in Wheels & Motor over the past eight or so years.
Holden have been actually caught entering a SS with a hotted up engine into a review. It performed so well that MOTOR smelled a rat. It was dynoed and found to be about 50rwkw up on others tested at the same time. Holden's reply "Oops sorry. must have accidentally send you a development mule".
At release time Holden/HSV have made available "demos" for the journos. These are always amazingly fast. GTO 4.99s 0-100, SSs that do 13.2 0-400. These are driven by journos not track stars. Later the same model, but different actual, vehicles are tested and they NEVER do as well.
This is not my opinion it is actual written information in the above mentioned mags.
You can laugh it off as "conspiracy theory" or "random event" but it has happened over and over again.

Once is happenstance, twice is co-incedance, three times is enemy action.

But then you bought an auto GTS so you are not biased are you......

Flappist - I was not previously aware of this incident involving Holden supplying a hotted up SS for tests and despite your condescending introduction to your reply, I thank you for enlightening me. That is certainly an act to be exposed and something to consider when looking at various and vastly different times given by magazines and manufacturers.

As for my apparent bias - yes, I do have a new GTS and it did replace a 3 year old GT-P. It sits in the garage next to a much loved Ford Territory Ghia and I sit here typing this reply at a desk containing three prized collectable FPV scale models. The bias is just oozing out of me.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Flaming Mo

Flappist - I was not previously aware of this incident involving Holden supplying a hotted up SS for tests and despite your condescending introduction to your reply, I thank you for enlightening me. That is certainly an act to be exposed and something to consider when looking at various and vastly different times given by magazines and manufacturers.

As for my apparent bias - yes, I do have a new GTS and it did replace a 3 year old GT-P. It sits in the garage next to a much loved Ford Territory Ghia and I sit here typing this reply at a desk containing three prized collectable FPV scale models. The bias is just oozing out of me.

It was not meant to be condescending. You are new here. The Holden faux pas has been discussed here several times but I suspected you were aware of these discussions. I do not know if you have been a forum user previously and if not I can give you another bit of help.
Written statements are far more difficult to understand than verbal ones as they have no direct context. People tend to write as they speak and it is very easy to missinterpret. Just because something looks one way does not mean that the writer intended it that way.

Welcome to the forum, it can be fun.

[Dave_au]

Just to play a little bit of devil's advocate:

This percieved Holden/Mazda/Skoda/Freightliner/Scarab/Noosacat/Gogo-mobile bias that Motor and Wheels are supposed to have - it wouldn't be FFAU paranoia at all would it?

I mean, considering just how many of the VT-VZ Commodores those guys have had blow their power steering pumps etc and giving credit where credit is sometimes due.....

[MrSparkle]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

Just to play a little bit of devil's advocate:

I'm so sorry, I just simply could not resist! :Reverend:


You're absolutely right though mate, I think that Motor calls it as it sees it and certainly they had no hesitation in making a song and dance about everything from the power steering pump follies, to the F6 clutch debacle. Ultimately it wouldn't be in their best interest to play silly buggers and actually provide a glowing review that wasn't justified, and the same goes for the opposite - they wouldn't unnecessarily bag a car for no good reason. If the editor allows an article to become overly subjective without any backup then that is a mistake, and you don't see that sort of thing too often at all.

Now, back to the RS4... :

[merlin]

Obviously not many will agree here but whats with the continual testing of auto's in a "performance car of the year" contest (and just about every other issue too). The manual XR6T beat the auto XR6T, I would have liked to see what a manual F6 and GTS could do - I couldnt care less if the auto is 2 poofteenths quicker down the quarter mile. I think the track time would have been a lot faster. I mean autos are great for lazy everyday stuff, but I like to actually drive my cars (and I do 500km a week in Sydney traffic and still drive a manual, its hardly a "chore" as so many make out) and would appreciate some manual testing - whats the email address for MOTOR, I want to fire them up.

Oh and 7.5 to 100 for the XR5T Focus is pretty ghey dont know why everyone gets so hyped up about it...

Yes I have nothing positive to say today...

[Mutley]

Originally Posted by Flaming Mo

Flappist - I was not previously aware of this incident involving Holden supplying a hotted up SS for tests and despite your condescending introduction to your reply, I thank you for enlightening me. That is certainly an act to be exposed and something to consider when looking at various and vastly different times given by magazines and manufacturers.

As for my apparent bias - yes, I do have a new GTS and it did replace a 3 year old GT-P. It sits in the garage next to a much loved Ford Territory Ghia and I sit here typing this reply at a desk containing three prized collectable FPV scale models. The bias is just oozing out of me.

So, having owned a GT-P and a GTS, how do you compare them in the real world?

[Cosmo Kramer]

Originally Posted by flappist

I do not know if you have been a forum user previously and if not I can give you another bit of help.
Written statements are far more difficult to understand than verbal ones as they have no direct context. People tend to write as they speak and it is very easy to missinterpret. Just because something looks one way does not mean that the writer intended it that way.

Flappist - Very good advice for all, but I think the real lesson here is that one should not accuse another of bias without foundation.

[Rev28K]

There always has been and always will be an element of cheating in test cars that are available for magazines. I know of cars that have had lower diff ratios fitted (for better acceleration), bigger turbos fitted (for more power) and very aggressive suspension setups (heaps of negative camber that would stuff tyre life but really creates an impression if you borrow a car for a day or two). It’ll always happen.

[Dilan]

Germany:1 Holden:0

[Mechan1k]

Shouldn't that be
Germany 1 - Korea 0

[ADSXR8]

I've just posted somthing similar on LS1, but other that the top performances from the forced induction Fords, Where are the BOSS V8's.

Most here will agree, and some may not, but the Turbo Falcons are serious performance cars, and this Motor test proves it.

One point that has not been made yet is "WHERE ARE THE FORD V8's". They are not here, and that would probably be because they are not good enough. Holden and HSV has still claimed the top prize for Australian V8 Performance Car.

When I wrote off my GT-P in January this year, I looked very open mindedly at replacing it with HSV R8 6l, Typhoon or another GT-P. Now other than the 6pot Brembos and those sensational seats, the GT-P was no chance. Both R8 and Typhoon felt and went like performance cars. I went the Typhoon because with (at the time) VE on the way the VZ was old technology and didn't have the urgentcy of the forced 6. Either way, that was my decision.

Although not topping the Aussie made cars, the Holden V8's still performed very well. Also, other than the $250000 BMW's, I think the SSV that the next n/a car on the list in 14th spot.

[Cosmo Kramer]

Originally Posted by ADSF6

but other that the top performances from the forced induction Fords, Where are the BOSS V8's.

Most here will agree, and some may not, but the Turbo Falcons are serious performance cars, and this Motor test proves it.

One point that has not been made yet is "WHERE ARE THE FORD V8's".

I was thinking onlong the same lines. The success of the forced induction models may have taken the pressure off Ford to develop the V8 at a faster pace.

[Grasshoppr]

Flappist, Golden Thread... :nutsycuck

As I have not had the chance to log on since the magazine arrived at my house I was hoping that someone with a bit of sense (and real knowledge) start a thread telling all these "key board jockey's/wannabees" how biased Motor is :

It was the first thing I thought of as I read about the dismal performance of the GTS...

mmm I wonder which wannabees will respond to my post... :

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by BLKPhoon

Flappist, Golden Thread... :nutsycuck

As I have not had the chance to log on since the magazine arrived at my house I was hoping that someone with a bit of sense (and real knowledge) start a thread telling all these "key board jockey's/wannabees" how biased Motor is :

It was the first thing I thought of as I read about the dismal performance of the GTS...

mmm I wonder which wannabees will respond to my post... :

You might want to explain your post and then you might get some replies.
_

[Falc'man]

MOTOR MAGAZINE: "The SS, meanwhile, didn't feel as fit in the engine department as others we've sampled."

Why does thet surprise me?

[Danny]

Originally Posted by photn

so how about the XR5T............How cool is that!!!!!!!

To Quote Sam Newman: You Idiot. :

And as for Wally, mate I havent read much further into your argument since you came up with the idea that there was some sort of "Australian Standard" Into 0-100 times (so like, you're implying like, like Holden MUST count only 80milliseconds into 1 second, JUST like they test their power a 'different standard' ie; "ECE" kW and not "DIN" kW like Ford...), Righhht.... I'll just Go for a ride on my lollercoaster now....

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by ADSF6

I've just posted somthing similar on LS1, but other that the top performances from the forced induction Fords, Where are the BOSS V8's.

Most here will agree, and some may not, but the Turbo Falcons are serious performance cars, and this Motor test proves it.

One point that has not been made yet is "WHERE ARE THE FORD V8's". They are not here, and that would probably be because they are not good enough. Holden and HSV has still claimed the top prize for Australian V8 Performance Car.

When I wrote off my GT-P in January this year, I looked very open mindedly at replacing it with HSV R8 6l, Typhoon or another GT-P. Now other than the 6pot Brembos and those sensational seats, the GT-P was no chance. Both R8 and Typhoon felt and went like performance cars. I went the Typhoon because with (at the time) VE on the way the VZ was old technology and didn't have the urgentcy of the forced 6. Either way, that was my decision.

Although not topping the Aussie made cars, the Holden V8's still performed very well. Also, other than the $250000 BMW's, I think the SSV that the next n/a car on the list in 14th spot.

ok i can accept the fact that a typhhon is the faster car over the gt . but i really dont think they deserve all the **** talk they get . i really want to drive a typhoon . because i just cant accept they are that far in front . i know from my fpv drive day the v8s had more urge up to about 80 kms hour . and looked the more powerfull of the 2 . the typhhon just had very long legs . now i have a gt manual that has 354kw's with just a piisssy little catback with 2 1/4 inch pipes , just like the stock ones that most people would bag on here . and a bpt cai that most people say they take off , throw in the bin and replace with better ones . how could this be so slow , when on the same dyno, on the same day 297 kw 6 lt HSV's were getting 225 to 230 RWKW'S against my 264 RWKW's. and ss 5.7's were getting 202 RWKW'S . a stock xr6t got 240 RWKW'S . anyone with a typhoon care to come and have a drive . we'll test each others cars . im not talking about thrashing the daylights out of them . just a comparison should tell the differance . :

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Danny

To Quote Sam Newman: You Idiot. :

And as for Wally, mate I havent read much further into your argument since you came up with the idea that there was some sort of "Australian Standard" Into 0-100 times (so like, you're implying like, like Holden MUST count only 80milliseconds into 1 second, JUST like they test their power a 'different standard' ie; "ECE" kW and not "DIN" kW like Ford...), Righhht.... I'll just Go for a ride on my lollercoaster now....

I take it that is some kind of insult directed at me? I'm not implying anything, I just asked a simple question, but obviously it has put you on the defensive to the point where you feel it is a ****ing competition. If it means so much to you to be top dog, then sure you're top dog, I have no idea who you are, what your qualifications are, etc, so I won't be impressed or intimidated by what you write...

I'm only a lowly engineer type that has to comply with standards when conducting tests, or else they are invalidated, regardless of whether it walks like a duck and talks like a duck. By your tone I guess you feel tests like ancap are useless and only real world data like actual crash scenes count?

[Wally]

Please accept my apologies Danny, I just read some of your previous posts and see, like some of your collegues here, who are similarly keen google mechanics, you are truely a heavy weight when it comes to cars.

[reminder to self] must resist the urge to discontinue corresponding with adolescents [/reminder to self]

[red_hotxr6]

Originally Posted by flappist

I just received my Jan '07 MOTOR with the PCOTY results.

My copy is faulty. It shows the GTS & SSV being beaten by Fords.
Not only does it show the GTS being beaten by TWO XR6Ts and the F6 but ALSO by the SSV.

Surely this is not the actions of a totally pro holden biased magazine.

Surely the GTS must beat all of these.....or did HSV slip up and send a standard as delivered to customers one......

And my favorite bit of all:

F6 0-100 km/h 5.6.
GTS 0-100 km/h 5.5 (I thought they were 5.0 in the brochure?)

F6 0-400m 13.7 @ 173.3 km/h
GTS 0-400m 13.7 @ 170.7 km/h (Must have left the spare tyre, seats and whatever in it)

F6 0-1000m 24.5 @ 223.1 km/h
GTS 0-1000m 24.6 @ 218.4 km/h

F6, bottom of the range FPV, $60k
GTS, top of the range HSV, $80k

Got to be rigged.........

/me sits and waits for slick troll's reply

Simple why dont you email the magazine and enquire about what "you" think is wrong with the figures, see what they reply is. But dont you think a ford is capable of beating a holden, why is it that the car supplied by holden be a standard one.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by red_hotxr6

Simple why dont you email the magazine and enquire about what "you" think is wrong with the figures, see what they reply is. But dont you think a ford is capable of beating a holden, why is it that the car supplied by holden be a standard one.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm