2018 Holden Commodore details released - Page 3

ebv8 · 27-10-2016, 09:21 AM

didn't holden try similar cars than this and fail?
Epica and Malibu
This thing will be alot better quality than those 2 but who is the target market? Fleet buyers? not the everyday bogan aussie who buy Commodores now (i'm one of them)

the only thing that will save Holden is a Camaro or LS3 powered Colorado
and putting an SS badge on something not V8 or turbo is criminal.

Junkyard-Dog · 27-10-2016, 10:46 AM

Didn't they release a VP SS Commodore that had the 3.8 Buick V6?

ebv8 · 27-10-2016, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junkyard-Dog

Didn't they release a VP SS Commodore that had the 3.8 Buick V6?

correct but that was also criminal. least you could still buy a V8

Sabantien · 27-10-2016, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebv8

This thing will be alot better quality than those 2 but who is the target market? Fleet buyers? not the everyday bogan aussie who buy Commodores now (i'm one of them)

Bang on. They have already said they want to disassociate from the bogan buyer. I'm guessing the only reason they're keeping the name is for fleet buyers who will just continue buying Commodores.

csv8 · 27-10-2016, 11:40 AM

"When the 2018 Holden Commodore arrives in February 2018, it will be ready for action as a general duties and highway patrol police vehicle, Holden has confirmed.

Speaking at a recent development drive of the next-generation Holden Commodore, Holden executive director of sales, Peter Keley, told CarAdvice that Holden had shown key executives from police forces nationwide details about drivetrains and they were impressed.

“At the end of the day, they had a lot of confidence around the fact the traditional Commodore attributes were still very much part of the next-generation Commodore,” Keley said."

Read more at http://www.caradvice.com.au/492408/2...6GcgH1T2WUG.99

commodorenutt · 27-10-2016, 11:58 AM

Long shot, but maybe, just maybe (and being hopeful here) they are downplaying the drivelines to retain demand for the last of the VFII out to the end of production, so they don't have to constantly drop daily build numbers and lose even more money.

When manufacturing finishes, there's a 3 month gap until this FWD/AVD "thing" is released locally - plenty of time to up the marketing hype with a base model V6 (like the Impala sedan in the USA) and add the twin turbos to the SS model.

If not, then I fear another Malibu failure..... I certainly won't be buying one.

Holden need to retire the Commodore name with dignity, not pass it on to an unworthy piece of FWD 4-pot rubbish. Look at how revered the Kingswood name is/was, yet the Kingswood was only one level of trim (with Belmont & Premier either side initially). In sedan & wagon form, production only lasted 11 odd years (another 5 or so as commercials), but the name was revered by many in the 80s & 90s, and to a lesser extent, even today.

The Commodore nameplate has been around for 38 years - and everyone can see right through Holden's attempt to bolster this new POS by using that hallowed name.
They should have done what Ford Australia did - retire it with grace, on a worthy RWD performance sedan.

There was also a V6 VT SS - but it was supercharged...... The VP SS V6 was in retaliation to Ford in the Production car series. Prior to the EB V8 return, they were racing I6 against V6, but the Ford S-pack had 15x7" wheels vs the 15x6" on the VP S. To homologate the 7" wheels from the SS on the VP S, they needed to produce something like 125 or 150 specials, with that package - which became the VP SS V6.

tranquilized · 27-10-2016, 12:58 PM

Sounds like there won't be a turbo version of the NG Commodore at all. The Cadillac twin turbo 3.6 V6 that was always rumored doesn't fit in the chassis, which means a version of the current V6 in the Commodore - the horrible asthmatic boat anchor of a thing - will be the top dog "performance" engine. A lot of local development would be needed to bolt a turbo on that engine and I just can't see it happening.

XWGT · 27-10-2016, 02:21 PM

Article says no room for a turbo full stop
This engine isnt going anywhere

Ben73 · 27-10-2016, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lownloud

I'm almost convinced that trucks are the equivalent new muscle cars of the 70's.
ie: Noisy, uncomfortable, handle and stop like crap, are reasonably quick in a straight line and have mountains of torque....

If they started putting decent engines in them I'm sure they would be the new 'muscle cars'.
But instead it's 4cylinder diesel galore unfortunately.

On this commodore, I think it will be a fail.
If you are going to buy a 4cylinder petrol or fielder, there will probably be better options out there. But I guess we will have to wait and see the finished product.

outback_ute · 27-10-2016, 05:50 PM

I wonder how interior space will compare to Camry, Mondeo etc.

FGX008 · 27-10-2016, 06:25 PM

V8 engine Holden's represent approximately 35 % of their sales. I am doubtful that this new car and engine package will fill this gap. IMHO they have a problem.

Cheers, Brent

xtremerus · 27-10-2016, 07:19 PM

Aftermarket would be able to fit turbos or a supercharger.
If there is a will, there is a way.
Just Holden will not do it.

NX74205 · 27-10-2016, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by commodorenutt

There was also a V6 VT SS - but it was supercharged...... The VP SS V6 was in retaliation to Ford in the Production car series. Prior to the EB V8 return, they were racing I6 against V6, but the Ford S-pack had 15x7" wheels vs the 15x6" on the VP S. To homologate the 7" wheels from the SS on the VP S, they needed to produce something like 125 or 150 specials, with that package - which became the VP SS V6.

Are you sure it wasn't in response to the EB2 S XR6 rather than the S-pack?

**DFB FGXR6** · 27-10-2016, 07:30 PM

So with Holden not committing to a Twin Turbo V6 due to under-bonnet space constraints, does this leave true high performance versions to HSV? Could a Supercharged version of the 3.6 V6 be what HSV produce to meet the requirements of a SS / Clubsport replacement?

FalconXV · 27-10-2016, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

So with Holden not committing to a Twin Turbo V6 due to under-bonnet space constraints, does this leave true high performance versions to HSV? Could a Supercharged version of the 3.6 V6 be what HSV produce to meet the requirements of a SS / Clubsport replacement?

Or a hot vee with turbos on the inside?

Sprintey · 27-10-2016, 10:28 PM

I feel a great disturbance in the Force, as if Commodore's target market suddenly cried out in terror and was suddenly silenced.

commodorenutt · 27-10-2016, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NX74205

Are you sure it wasn't in response to the EB2 S XR6 rather than the S-pack?

Up against the Falcon, The VN never did too well in '91, so for the '92 Group E production season, Holden needed to do something.

The VP SS V6 was launched against the current 3.9L - so it pre-dated the EB2. And it was mostly for the wheel size - the Falcon had an extra inch in width against the VN and VP S that the Holden boys were rather jealous of....(as they couldn't get enough grip from the rear of the VN) and they also snuck in a ~10% shorter diff ratio so the V6 could get it's limited power (against the Ford) down quicker - giving it the advantage over the Falcon with gearing, and equalling the wheel/tyre size.

Ford responded to the VP SS V6 with a limited edition EB2 to try to get some more changes through - including the additional capacity. It wasn't a Tickford or an XR6 though - they were called something else. Sprint comes to mind, but it wasn't a sprint either. They didn't make many of them though - a concession for the complaints against the sneaky diff ratio change.

Parity racing at it's finest!

Mind you, the Tickford 164?kw 4.0L gave the later EB a much better advantage overall, but the tit-for-tat was pretty much all wound up by the end of '92, with the focus placed back onto the headline V8 series for '93.

I think it may also have come to an end because they removed the category or something too? Can't remember exactly - too many politics at the time over the end of Group A, the upcoming V8-only series, and the 2L class all fighting it out.

Syndrome · 27-10-2016, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Sounds like there won't be a turbo version of the NG Commodore at all. The Cadillac twin turbo 3.6 V6 that was always rumored doesn't fit in the chassis, which means a version of the current V6 in the Commodore - the horrible asthmatic boat anchor of a thing - will be the top dog "performance" engine. A lot of local development would be needed to bolt a turbo on that engine and I just can't see it happening.

NG Commodore? No Good.

Cobra · 27-10-2016, 11:09 PM

In 1979 Holden retired the Kingswood name after its replacement, the VB Commodore made its first appearance in 1978. I think after forty years, the Commodore name was ready to be retired.

Carrying on the Commodore name on this vehicle is poor, IMO.

bigwil · 28-10-2016, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by commodorenutt

Up against the Falcon, The VN never did too well in '91, so for the '92 Group E production season, Holden needed to do something.

The VP SS V6 was launched against the current 3.9L - so it pre-dated the EB2. And it was mostly for the wheel size - the Falcon had an extra inch in width against the VN and VP S that the Holden boys were rather jealous of....(as they couldn't get enough grip from the rear of the VN) and they also snuck in a ~10% shorter diff ratio so the V6 could get it's limited power (against the Ford) down quicker - giving it the advantage over the Falcon with gearing, and equalling the wheel/tyre size.

Ford responded to the VP SS V6 with a limited edition EB2 to try to get some more changes through - including the additional capacity. It wasn't a Tickford or an XR6 though - they were called something else. Sprint comes to mind, but it wasn't a sprint either. They didn't make many of them though - a concession for the complaints against the sneaky diff ratio change.

Parity racing at it's finest!

Mind you, the Tickford 164?kw 4.0L gave the later EB a much better advantage overall, but the tit-for-tat was pretty much all wound up by the end of '92, with the focus placed back onto the headline V8 series for '93.

I think it may also have come to an end because they removed the category or something too? Can't remember exactly - too many politics at the time over the end of Group A, the upcoming V8-only series, and the 2L class all fighting it out.

It was actually called the EB SS, there's a small article about it in a Wheels magazine sometime in later 1992, it had a red xr6 on the front cover doing a burnout

commodorenutt · 28-10-2016, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigwil

It was actually called the EB SS, there's a small article about it in a Wheels magazine sometime in later 1992, it had a red xr6 on the front cover doing a burnout

Nailed it!

Can't believe I couldn't remember that. Although SS & Falcon don't really seem to go together (and may not be too palatable to one-eyed fans from either side).

Googling EB SS - the first result was this page:
http://www.shannons.com.au/club/news...tory-race-car/

In the comments there's a link to a magazine article describing what Ford did to the EB SS, and the other things Holden did to the VP that I'd forgotten about - the 80L tank (to get the fuel load to sit lower) and the IRS (although this was optional, but at additional cost - so on the V6 SS, just like it's big brother with 2 more pots, it was standard fitment).
There was a road test done on the VP SS V6 that went into much greater detail than the one in the link above. It also noted the limited build number (required for homologation) which was either 150 or 125 - I can't remember now.

I also went through my build sheets collection (indexed on a spreadsheet). I have 5 VP SS V6s recorded - sheets from 4 of them, and a tag from one as well (it was a burnt wreck in a yard about 10 years back). Their build dates are 26/2/92 (2 cars), 28/2/92(1 car) and 2/3/92 (2 cars).

Those dates pre-date EB2 by a couple of months. Any idea when the EB SS was released? And was it an EB1 or EB2? (4.0L would suggest EB2).
Edit: Just re-read the article & it says the Ford has ABS, so that's post April '92 for that option.

The article also shows Mal Rose's '93 title winner - so it did still run through '93 (I thought Group E died when the diverse Group A class finished in '92 and changed to the 5.0L/2.0L class for '93).

Junkyard-Dog · 28-10-2016, 04:58 PM

The EB2 S XR6 really was a sorted car. I have one at it's pretty bloody quick.

Angeldust · 29-10-2016, 11:37 AM

You would think the VP SS would now fetch big $$, as its the last homologated car post the Gp A era ??

roddy1960 · 29-10-2016, 06:47 PM

G'day all....Did anyone see the Falcon that never was in the special Ford issue of Motor magazine..
I know it's hypothetical OBVIOUSLY...but if this had of happened this way it would have been a nice jigger in the garage and would have been a good option to the Commodore ..I tried to load the link but i expect being an article and image in the current issue it's not yet possible.. Here's some other 'hypo' images of the car that never was..see the Mustang connection https://www.google.com.au/search?q=F...usXaTOdMCGM%3A ..Cheers Rod..

malazn mafia · 29-10-2016, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by commodorenutt

Long shot, but maybe, just maybe (and being hopeful here) they are downplaying the drivelines to retain demand for the last of the VFII out to the end of production, so they don't have to constantly drop daily build numbers and lose even more money.

When manufacturing finishes, there's a 3 month gap until this FWD/AVD "thing" is released locally - plenty of time to up the marketing hype with a base model V6 (like the Impala sedan in the USA) and add the twin turbos to the SS model.

If not, then I fear another Malibu failure..... I certainly won't be buying one.

Holden need to retire the Commodore name with dignity, not pass it on to an unworthy piece of FWD 4-pot rubbish. Look at how revered the Kingswood name is/was, yet the Kingswood was only one level of trim (with Belmont & Premier either side initially). In sedan & wagon form, production only lasted 11 odd years (another 5 or so as commercials), but the name was revered by many in the 80s & 90s, and to a lesser extent, even today.

The Commodore nameplate has been around for 38 years - and everyone can see right through Holden's attempt to bolster this new POS by using that hallowed name.
They should have done what Ford Australia did - retire it with grace, on a worthy RWD performance sedan.

There was also a V6 VT SS - but it was supercharged...... The VP SS V6 was in retaliation to Ford in the Production car series. Prior to the EB V8 return, they were racing I6 against V6, but the Ford S-pack had 15x7" wheels vs the 15x6" on the VP S. To homologate the 7" wheels from the SS on the VP S, they needed to produce something like 125 or 150 specials, with that package - which became the VP SS V6.

What was the Production Car series called? Would be almost comical to watch early V6 Commodores and I6 Falcons racing, their power outputs are in the modern 4cyl car output range.

malazn mafia · 29-10-2016, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syndrome

NG Commodore? No Good.

VE was all about "ready to go". 12 years later it will be "No Go"

Struggo · 29-10-2016, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FG50T

I think a VXR would be a hit here. Most new cars I see on the road that aren't 4wds are either new WRX's or new CLA45's so there's certainly a market for that awd turbo stuff.

Top gear review of the current VXR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QypmXbwD1k

Agree, oh that was good little doco on signage also.

I think this car well do well here. Here is another review, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PhwcwdvulM

commodorenutt · 30-10-2016, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

What was the Production Car series called? Would be almost comical to watch early V6 Commodores and I6 Falcons racing, their power outputs are in the modern 4cyl car output range.

Production cars (Group E). They only ran a few years in that guise. Some decent drivers competed in the series too.

PooDog · 30-10-2016, 09:32 AM

good to see holden have learnt from there history all the commodore/ opel body copies have always equalled

eb2fairmont · 30-10-2016, 02:07 PM

Well another two cents...

Car will be quite good I think for what it is. Will look good handle well, the awd package looks promising also.

Base car with turbo 4, that seems more appealing than a nose heavy six , and more tuneable. So if you couple the awd with the turbo donk then that might be the sweet spot in the range.

But this is not a commodore. And it's not a v8. And as you can see there is still a sizeable market for that.

Holden has misjudged how this is going to be recieved awd v6 ss isn't going to appeal toss drivers.