another cunning desguised speed camera

[heydonms]

I disagree with the "speed camera don't stop people speeding" arguement.

When I first got my license I tended to go over the limit a fair bit. After 2 years driving I had lost about 6 points, I was driving down south one long weekend (double demerits) and got flashed doing 90 in what I thought was a 60 zone and quickly realised that I might well have just lost my license. I turned out to be an 80 zone and I was doing 89, so I kept my license and haven't had a ticket since (I still speed when overtaking on a country road, but that is about it).

As an aside, they have started putting "Are you speeding?" signs in front of camera around Perth. They still hide the cameras, and they put the signs up where there aren't camera, obviously a cheap way to get people to slow down a bit.

[gozza]

Just for interests sake there a Black Subaru Liberty - Last years model getting around the M1

[XR06T]

Originally Posted by sgt_doofey

~snip
A single lane carriageway, then yes, I will speed to spend the least amount of time on the wrong side of the road, but that is only on country roads. ~

you sir are a speeding menace to society..

[Matt_J]

I don’t think there is any doubt that speed cameras have caused people to slow down, where I think there is ample doubt is that they save lives. The Victorian government has gathered 100's of millions of dollars in speeding fines yet the road toll continues to rise. How long is the vic gov going to flog this dead horse before Joe public actually wakes up and smells a rat?

Teach people to merge on freeways, teach people what to do in case of an emergency situation, teach people to look ahead when they drive, teach people to leave adequate enough room in between them and other cars, teach people to drive to the conditions (this is completely different to speed limits!) and then lives will be saved. The problem with the above points and why they are not a concern to the government is that those points are hard to police and much harder to fine in the bulk numbers the speed cameras net.

In my honest opinion the governments care very little for saving road users life’s, they have brain washed the population that speed in the big killer just to justify the outrageous amounts of revenue they reap from the cash cow that is speed cameras.

[Jeeepers]

Originally Posted by paul_r_d

Who sets their cruise control around suburban streets??????? LOL

Originally Posted by XA-Coupe

me !! saves me getting tickets ! :

Me too, I'm lazy.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by MattJ@Yella Terra

I don’t think there is any doubt that speed cameras have caused people to slow down, where I think there is ample doubt is that they save lives. The Victorian government has gathered 100's of millions of dollars in speeding fines yet the road toll continues to rise. How long is the vic gov going to flog this dead horse before Joe public actually wakes up and smells a rat?

Teach people to merge on freeways, teach people what to do in case of an emergency situation, teach people to look ahead when they drive, teach people to leave adequate enough room in between them and other cars, teach people to drive to the conditions (this is completely different to speed limits!) and then lives will be saved. The problem with the above points and why they are not a concern to the government is that those points are hard to police and much harder to fine in the bulk numbers the speed cameras net.

In my honest opinion the governments care very little for saving road users life’s, they have brain washed the population that speed in the big killer just to justify the outrageous amounts of revenue they reap from the cash cow that is speed cameras.

How many people who die on our roads are obeying the speed limits or the road rules..??? Appart from those who are innocently involved id say very few..
so i don't know how people can say speed camera's aren't effective at saving lives, it just means some people are ignoring them and happy to pay the fines.... and maybe the ultimate price.. their life.
Its obvious by the enormous amount of revenue they generate.

[Matt_J]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

How many people who die on our roads are obeying the speed limits or the road rules..??? Appart from those who are innocently involved id say very few..

Hey, I agree, how many people involved in accidents are obeying the road rules? The big problem with a statment like this is from that basic stand point you assume doing 80kph in a 80 zone is always safe. Saving life's must begin with education. My point is that I think someone travelling at 85 whom knows how to react to a situation is going to be a safer driver when compared to another person travelling at 75 who does not.

Originally Posted by 4Vman

so i don't know how people can say speed camera's aren't effective at saving lives, it just means some people are ignoring them and happy to pay the fines.... and maybe the ultimate price.. their life.
Its obvious by the enormous amount of revenue they generate.

Without independant data to prove what the Govenment says, I think the brainwashing is doing a great job, yet the road toll continues to rise.

When my kids are old enough to drive, my message to help prevent them getting into accidents will not be just a verbal 'drop 5, stay alive', as that would be irresponable at best. When I went for my licence I got into trouble for crossing a line when I shouldnt have, maybe if the lady who lost her two baby boys last week was taught how to merge at a freeway entrance when she went for her licence, she would not have made the evening news.

This is obviously something I'm passionate about, if people think they can do 5 kays less and then you are safe on the road, I think the govenment has blood on its hands.

M.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

How many people who die on our roads are obeying the speed limits or the road rules..??? Appart from those who are innocently involved id say very few..

Correct, but would anyones life been saved if a camera was in the area of the accident?

Originally Posted by 4Vman

so i don't know how people can say speed camera's aren't effective at saving lives, it just means some people are ignoring them and happy to pay the fines.... and maybe the ultimate price.. their life.
Its obvious by the enormous amount of revenue they generate.

In years gone by when the government passed laws making seat bealts mandatory there was a significant decline in the road toll, when cameras were introduced there wasn't been the same decline. In addtion to that improvements in vehicle safety (Airbags ABS, ESC) should have assisted the Governments claim that cameras save lives.

All states have a different procedures for cameras and in Vic, they are not signposted and they are set to a low tolerance. In my experience they are never situated in black spots or areas where they could be used to rightfully slow drivers down.

Dont get me wrong I think we need limits and these need to be policed, however this is just one area of road safety, how about looking at other areas, or simply state that cameras are there for revenue raising.

[AusM]

Some interesting web trawling:

Fresh doubts over the value of speed cameras were raised yesterday after a surge in accidents at sites where they are installed. Official papers show that the number of crashes rose instead of fell at 70 sites in London.

At 32 speed camera sites there were an average of 48 more accidents involving death or serious injury over 12 months compared with previous years. At 38 traffic light camera sites there were on average 62 more accidents, Association of London Government papers show. An investigation has now been ordered into why the cameras have not cut deaths and injuries. Some could be ripped out.

At other sites engineers will design traffic-calming schemes - in addition to the cameras.

Experts today claimed drivers were "distracted" by cameras and forced to look at their speedometers instead of the road. The alert comes after West Midlands police announced plans to remove 10 cameras and take film out of 150 more after fears they were endangering road safety. more

Accident caused by someone braking for a camera >

Aus 2004 study >

Apparently other states can use the revenue for their Christmas parties if they want to! Serve & Protect!
From Qld Govt site:

Distribution of revenue from camera detected offences is restricted by the Transport Operations (Road Use Management) Act 1995. This requires that all money collected from camera-detected offences (after paying administrative costs) be used for:

• road safety education and awareness programs
• road accident injury rehabilitation programs
• road funding to improve the safety of the sections of state-controlled roads where crashes happen most frequently.

Most other states in Australia do not have any policy or legislative requirements in place for the distribution of camera-detected offence (or other traffic fine) revenue.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by MattJ@Yella Terra

Hey, I agree, how many people involved in accidents are obeying the road rules? The big problem with a statment like this is from that basic stand point you assume doing 80kph in a 80 zone is always safe. Saving life's must begin with education. My point is that I think someone travelling at 85 whom knows how to react to a situation is going to be a safer driver when compared to another person travelling at 75 who does not.



Without independant data to prove what the Govenment says, I think the brainwashing is doing a great job, yet the road toll continues to rise.

When my kids are old enough to drive, my message to help prevent them getting into accidents will not be just a verbal 'drop 5, stay alive', as that would be irresponable at best. When I went for my licence I got into trouble for crossing a line when I shouldnt have, maybe if the lady who lost her two baby boys last week was taught how to merge at a freeway entrance when she went for her licence, she would not have made the evening news.

This is obviously something I'm passionate about, if people think they can do 5 kays less and then you are safe on the road, I think the govenment has blood on its hands.

M.

Yeah i agree, and its a far more complicated subject that just yes or no, for me its more a case that speed camera's are 1 of a number of deterants, they're not the solution, i don't think there is really 1 solution, more a combination of things, but in my mind driver attitude is the biggest killer over and above anything else.
Also as the stats show people obviously arent too concerned with the cost of infringement or they wouldn't speed!!

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by PFdesign

Some interesting web trawling:

Accident caused by someone braking for a camera >

Aus 2004 study >

Apparently other states can use the revenue for their Christmas parties if they want to! Serve & Protect!
From Qld Govt site:

Ive got to say while there are unpleasant aspects to speed cameras and the like i find it a bit bemusing that people constantly try to discredit any attempt made to control and enforce the road rules which incidently includes posted speed limits..
What should they do? just drop speed limits all together and let people choose their own speed because they don't want to be fined for breaking the law??
How are speed camera's any different to an officer in a car pulling you over for speeding or going through a red light????
I also find it funny that its hinted that these camera's actually cause accidents because people are distracted and cant drive at the posted speed without needing to constantly watch the speedo... : , this in itself shows a lack of skill or grey matter...

[SB076]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

.... What should they do? just drop speed limits all together and let people choose their own speed because they don't want to be fined for breaking the law??
How are speed camera's any different to an officer in a car pulling you over for speeding or going through a red light????
I also find it funny that its hinted that these camera's actually cause accidents because people are distracted and cant drive at the posted speed without needing to constantly watch the speedo... : , this in itself shows a lack of skill or grey matter...

No having speed limits is fine, the difference between an officer and a camera is that a officer is not going to book you for driving in a safe manner but doing 103k's in a 100 zone (unlike the camera)

Yes it is lack of skill or grey matter but I see it regularly on the Monash - traffic is moving along at 90 - 100, then there is a car at the side of the road someone panicks and brakes then people see brake lights all of a sudden you are doing 60 - 70 and someone runs up the back of someone else

[XR06T]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

How many people who die on our roads are obeying the speed limits or the road rules..???

anyone actually know?

im going to say that there are far worse problems on our roads that not even policed (fatigue). the govt needs to spend money rather than just rake it in to decrease the road toll.

a good point was made earlier re speed limits. who says that one speed is safe for all road users on a particular stretch of road? a fully laden b double can do the same speed as an f6 with brembo's on a freeway? alarm bells are ringing! same speed for when the road is full of cars as when there is not a soul within 4km of you?

[TRRTRY]

i received a fine today - i've had a few when i was younger but haven't had one for over 6 years.

5 k's over - $138 - 1 demerit point

- only 5 k's that ****es me off

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by XR06T

anyone actually know?

im going to say that there are far worse problems on our roads that not even policed (fatigue). the govt needs to spend money rather than just rake it in to decrease the road toll.

a good point was made earlier re speed limits. who says that one speed is safe for all road users on a particular stretch of road? a fully laden b double can do the same speed as an f6 with brembo's on a freeway? alarm bells are ringing! same speed for when the road is full of cars as when there is not a soul within 4km of you?

How do you police fatigue? I yawn when I wake up, I often enough yawn an hour or so after waking up, Im not going to fall asleep though. Red eyes? - Hayfever. Wait, maybe they could use the truck system of computerised highway monitoring and log books.

And how do you have varying speed limits for individual cars, would it be a selling point for Ford, the Typoon comes with 140km/h speed limits? What about the drivers, or borrowed cars.

While traffic may be less at 2am, that is no guarantee you wont come across the unexpected.

These are all nice plans, until you think about them.

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I also find it funny that its hinted that these camera's actually cause accidents because people are distracted and cant drive at the posted speed without needing to constantly watch the speedo... : , this in itself shows a lack of skill or grey matter...

Every time I read that line in someones post I picture someones Nanna huddled over the wheel.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by simon5574

i received a fine today - i've had a few when i was younger but haven't had one for over 6 years.

5 k's over - $138 - 1 demerit point

- only 5 k's that ****es me off

what was the detected speed and what was the alleged speed?
Normally you get a 3K grace... so you were probably really detected at 8K over..
by the way, nobody gets booked for 3K over....

[Elks]

Originally Posted by XR06T

who says that one speed is safe for all road users on a particular stretch of road? a fully laden b double can do the same speed as an f6 with brembo's on a freeway?

I love when I'm driving a truck and brake early, (because you have to_), and the average dumb *** pull in front of you the gets cranky becuase your mostering them.

I think that that's getting close to Darwin's natural selection.

[SNB05T]

I also find it funny that its hinted that these camera's actually cause accidents because people are distracted and cant drive at the posted speed without needing to constantly watch the speedo... , this in itself shows a lack of skill or grey matter...

i agree with this part. the two most raised revenue makers in sydney (princess hwy in kogarah) are down the road from my house.

i nearly ran up the ar5e of a LEARNER driving instructor and an asian learner (no offence to any asians here), (and i was 5 car lengths behind them previously) because they decided to slam on the brakes at the camera.

i was lucky as i watch the road in front, beside and behind me as everyone should be taught how to.

the person behind me nearly went through my xr8 because they were on their phone and not concentrating on the road.

when i got home, i rang the driving instructor and had a nice conversation with him. his excuse, they are learning and i don't have any points to loose.


im no angel on the road, i have and still speed, i've also had my fair share of fines and accidents, some my fault and not mine, but i have learnt alot from my miss spent youth and i believe i am a better driver for it.

i also think that a majority of cameras are revenue raisers, example, the f3 freeway just before the orimbah exit going down a steep hill in the middle of the descent is a speed camera : .
having said that, cameras in school zones should be there, if you speed in a school zone and get caught, you deserve it.

its better than seeing a kid being killed by some idiot because they're 2 minutes late for a meeting or coffee its not a pretty sight, i've seen it happen
and it still scares the crap out of me 10 years later.

sorry to hijack the thread guys.

[AusM]

:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I also find it funny that its hinted that these camera's actually cause accidents because people are distracted and cant drive at the posted speed without needing to constantly watch the speedo... , this in itself shows a lack of skill or grey matter...

How many times have you been in traffic, all doing the speed limit or less, and someone slams on the brakes when they see a camera? It happens all too often. The tolerances are so low, the fines and penalties so high, that they encourage (poor) drivers to panic-react. You don't get fined for braking hard and causing an accident behind you. Change of speed is more of an issue than doing the speed limit in many cases. Poor merging habits, people who don't know that the front car has right of way etc. Teach people to read the traffic, not the speedo!

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by PFdesign

:How many times have you been in traffic, all doing the speed limit or less, and someone slams on the brakes when they see a camera? It happens all too often. The tolerances are so low, the fines and penalties so high, that they encourage (poor) drivers to panic-react. You don't get fined for braking hard and causing an accident behind you. Change of speed is more of an issue than doing the speed limit in many cases. Poor merging habits, people who don't know that the front car has right of way etc. Teach people to read the traffic, not the speedo!

Ah.. Im glad someone was stupid enough to bring this up.. what's the rules regarding following too close (tail-gating) and driving in a manner that allows you sufficient time to react to an emergency ahead of you? (who's to blame in a rear ender??).
Who's at fault if you run up the bum of someone who brakes to shed 10K's off their speed??? i'll give you a clue.. its NOT the speed camera....
Its no different to reacting to seeing a police car parked on the side of the road with a lazar.. you only brake suddenly if you know you're speeding... if you arent sure then you're not paying attention, if you run up the bum of someone who brakes "just in case" its your fault for following too close and not paying attention.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Ah.. Im glad someone was stupid enough to bring this up.. what's the rules regarding following too close (tail-gating) and driving in a manner that allows you sufficient time to react to an emergency ahead of you? (who's to blame in a rear ender??).
Who's at fault if you run up the bum of someone who brakes to shed 10K's off their speed??? i'll give you a clue.. its NOT the speed camera....
Its no different to reacting to seeing a police car parked on the side of the road with a lazar.. you only brake suddenly if you know you're speeding... if you arent sure then you're not paying attention, if you run up the bum of someone who brakes "just in case" its your fault for following too close and not paying attention.

Its made worse when they only shed a few km off the speed. How close must a person be traveling if they cant avoid hitting them? The poster makes it sound like they drop back to 10km/h. The arguments and excuses against cameras just get worse and worse.

People, stick to the accuracy, placement and tolerances, there is no other valid arguments. If the devices are accurate, placed where they are needed before being placed just anywhere, and a 5 or so km/h tolerance is given, there is no reason to bring them into question. Im not even sure there should be anything more than 2 or 3 km tolerance.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by fmc351

Its made worse when they only shed a few km off the speed. How close must a person be traveling if they cant avoid hitting them? The poster makes it sound like they drop back to 10km/h. The arguments and excuses against cameras just get worse and worse.

People, stick to the accuracy, placement and tolerances, there is no other valid arguments. If the devices are accurate, placed where they are needed before being placed just anywhere, and a 5 or so km/h tolerance is given, there is no reason to bring them into question. Im not even sure there should be anything more than 2 or 3 km tolerance.

Exactly, how close must you be travelling to the car in front to rear-end them anyway? as you say its not like people drop from 130k's to 60k's, it most likely a slight brake check... the other point is that it also means you must have been speeding as well...
It seems we're living in a world were its everyone elses fault, people won't take responsibilty for their own driving "its the speed camera's fault"... some people want to blame everyone else but themselves when they get caught breaking the law....

[AusM]

For most it's a slight brake, but there are some that brake far too hard, when they shouldn't brake at all. Technically the car behind is at fault for almost any situation except for the person in front intentionally trying to cause an accident afaik.

Still, it's not about who's at fault. It's the fact the higher risk of an accident exists where it doesn't exist without the presence of a camera (and an idiot driver who brakes). Doing the speed limit doesn't mean that you can stop in time for all possible eventualities.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by PFdesign

For most it's a slight brake, but there are some that brake far too hard, when they shouldn't brake at all. Technically the car behind is at fault for almost any situation except for the person in front intentionally trying to cause an accident afaik.

Still, it's not about who's at fault. It's the fact the higher risk of an accident exists where it doesn't exist without the presence of a camera (and an idiot driver who brakes). Doing the speed limit doesn't mean that you can stop in time for all possible eventualities.

The situation you describe requires two idiots, not one. The driver hitting the brakes to the point of nearly stopping, and the clown so close behind they couldnt avoid hitting them if the braking was necessary for an emergency situation. Neither one are meant to drive like that, and it doesnt concern me as Im not one of them. They deserve to hit each other, and any other driver driving with due care and attention should be able to avoid the incident.


Yeah, everyone instinctively brakes, but the only people I see jumping hard on the skids is those doing more than a few k over, and if someone is going to rear end them, they must be traveling at similar speeds.

[Matt_J]

I am not anti-speed cameras, they have there place in society, no doubt. I am againts there placement for revenue rasing though and am more againts the brain washing that says that speed kills. As one of the other posters said, if you speed in school zones or places where there are kids then you deserve not just a fine and demerit points but something a whole lot more serious.

I agree with another callers post about watching the speedo more than the road, i have found myself do it! For me, 50kph is not a natural thing to do, it requires concentration to maintain.

If you hit someone in front of you for jumping on the brakes your not watching the road properly. It could have been a dog or a kid or soemthing else,yes its a pain but unfortunatly not the cameras fault.

I also agree with this quote: "Doing the speed limit doesn't mean that you can stop in time for all possible eventualities." Nor does it make you safe in all conditions, the brain washing will make you think it is but even in a court of law this will not stand up.

I can see 4Vman and fmc351's points, i just think you guys are excepting that speed cameras are there and we should just deal with that. I cannot unfortunatly get past that i think they are revenue raisers 1st and a ( poor excuse for a) safty measure 2nd.