Ford production to fall to 80 cars a day

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by fte50

Sickies, Insurance, Annual Leave, Long Service Leave, Parental Leave etc etc ......
They are just words of any form, whilst all the while being of a monetary value to the employee, and offset and factored into their total wage / hrly rate, so yes despite what that word is, it is clearly the employees money.


In reference to your example, I take it you must feel good about yourself, playing God I mean. Being in a position to not help out a GENUINELY sick employee by choice... bet it gives u a hard on.
Compassion can be so hard for some.
What if it were your father ???
You have described in 1 sentence the type of man I aspire to never become.

OK, what about the compassion of the employee to not abuse the system for 30 years. The trouble is, we give TOO much compassion. We are not helping the situation by rescuing people! People need to understand that there are consequences for their actions. And no, I didn't get a hard on (very classy). I actually feel for this employee. BUT THEY HAVEN'T HELPED themself. Annual leave IS NOT THE SAME as sick leave. In our department, that is costed, along with paid parental etc. SICK LEAVE is not. So, annual leave is for holidays.

[P6LTD351]

Unfortunately fte50, your hatred for Management and your love of the 'Entitlement Culture' is clouding your ability to see that I have genuine concern for my employees' careers and their longevity and job security. Think bigger picture mate!

[XR Martin]

End of the day theres two perspectives here.

Employees using their entitlements are a loss of productivity.
Employees not using their entitlements are a gain of productivity.

A business assuming that everyone will turn up everyday without fail is not going to be successful.

We have about a dozen workers where I am, theres only one guy who you could say has 'abused' his sick day entitlements.

[blackwasp]

Originally Posted by P6LTD351

Unfortunately fte50, your hatred for Management and your love of the 'Entitlement Culture' is clouding your ability to see that I have genuine concern for my employees' careers and their longevity and job security. Think bigger picture mate!

i understand both sides of the discussion, but on the flipside of the example that you used ( 30 year worker no sickies left) in my last job where the company relocated to another state and made us all redundant. there was a an employee who racked up 2600 hrs over 25 years in sick leave. this gentleman only received 164 hrs remuneration in his redundacy payout.
is this fair??

[XR Martin]

Oh do you regard lunch breaks an entitlement? Do you expect staff to work through lunch and if they dont you then claim a loss of productivity?

Oh wait, you're in the public service where everything stops for lunch.

In the private sector, often we have to work through lunch because customers demand service, and without customers there is no business.
In the public sector the 'customers' rely on you, they need you; they cant go anywhere else. Unlike the private sector...

[b0son]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

We have about a dozen workers where I am, theres only one guy who you could say has 'abused' his sick day entitlements.

And what effect does he have on others attitude/morale? Eventually, one by one, others start taking liberties because why be the only hard-working chump.

It wouldn't be an issue if you could easily move such workers along (simply the potential for it looming is enough to keep people from being too complacent), but you have to increasingly jump through hoops. Its simply becoming too much hassle to take people on. Automation FTW.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by blackwasp

there was a an employee who racked up 2600 hrs over 25 years in sick leave. this gentleman only received 164 hrs remuneration in his redundacy payout.
is this fair??

IMO, yes, but only because the notion of rolling over sick leave is absurd. just because I was lucky and didn't get sick at all one year, doesn't mean I'm likely to need to take twice the allotted sick days the next. the fact that it can be accrued in so many awards/EBAs simply underlines that so many feel entitled to be able to use all that leave whether sick or not.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Another Einstein post by you. What a shock. If anything quality has become more of a priority now that the numbers have dropped, and the dead wood was cleaned out 18 months ago leaving a solid crew of the best and most experienced.

But you know better right?

And do you think it's better to know you will be losing your job in the future, but who knows when, having it constantly running through your thoughts day after day or to have it done on the spot where you get a clean break and the chance to move onto a new job the next day.

Walk a mile in someones elses shoes you absolute tool.

Well if YOUR right...why does everyone whine when they gets sudden call they're jobs gone? I mean it must be better then having 3 years to reskill or prepare at least.

[Iggle Piggle]

Dinosaurs go "RROOOAAARRRRRR!!!!"

OK, that was a bit random, but is closer to the topic than some recent posts.

[2011G6E]

When SPC Ardmona was going through it's problems, there was much rubbish spread around that "employees entitlements" were the reason.
Then actual figures came out that said half the "entitlements" the media was reporting hadn't even been paid to anyone for years, and that in overall business costs, "entitlements" only cost 1% of operating costs each year...hardly enough to make a business fold. The critics seemed to go awful quiet after that.

Anyone know what percentage of running costs at Ford and Holden these "generous entitlements" are costing the business...?

[b0son]

2011G6E, the whole entitlements being a poofteenth of the running cost argument was a smokescreen. It was the overall cost of labour, which was a product of hourly rates, entitlements, flexibility arrangements, etc. The reality is that the dollar value of their work was way above award rates in an industry that wasn't turning a profit. Tell me how that's sustainable, and further, why its the taxpayer's responsibility to maintain it.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by P6LTD351

Whilst I agree that we enjoy these 'entitlements', the impact of the 'abuse' of these entitlements is what is crippling many industries.

I work in a Government Department and our main issue is that of sick leave. Our agreement is VERY generous with employees accruing 18 days sick leave per year. Might I add that they accrue for as long as the employee is working there. I.e., work 2 years, you accrue 36 days etc - they don't lose them. Many private organisations only get 10 and some don't carry over to the next year. As a Manager, I have no problem when people use their sick leave IF THEY ARE SICK. The trouble with Australian workplace culture is that many people believe that these sick leave days are also to be used when they ARE NOT SICK. They view them as an 'entitlement' rather than an 'insurance'. Productivity drops and the costs rise. Doesn't matter whether it's public or private industry - it's the same thing.

I would like a union delegate to explain to me why it is good practice to have union members standing outside a workplace with fake 'sick bags' with info inside on how to take sick leave and the minimal information that they need to give their boss when calling in sick. I would think a union would want to have a high performing and RELIABLE workforce representing them. Unfortunately that is rarely the case in the area that I work in (Think a large Gov dept of over 35000 staff).

We have fantastic conditions, great pay, yet we cannot get our attendance figures to improve. As Managers, we need to take some responsibility for this. Alas, I think we are shovelling the proverbial up a hill due to our Australian workplace culture. I do want to say that 99% of my workers give 110% when they are at work. It's just this entitlement and feeling that it's OK to 'chuck a sickie' that is at the heart of many problems in all industries.

I'll leave you with this little article re Toyota. It's something that I put to my workers in a hope that it will place some context. Government job or not - anything can be sub contracted out these days and regardless of the union promoting that it's ok to 'chuck a sickie' as that's your 'entitlement', I value my job and I also value my workers and want them to KEEP THEIR JOB.


A panellist on a current affairs program related an instance many would have missed. Toyota CEO, Akio Toyoda, was giving a luncheon address to a business group, (paraphrased):

“Two years ago we were working so hard to create conditions whereby we could stay in this wonderful country and produce cars.

"We had restructured the business and, despite acceding to recent union demands for even better wages and conditions, we were seeing a dim light flickering at the end of the tunnel.

“We were honest with our employees and had explained the seriousness of the company’s economic plight.

"They had assured us of their cooperation, so we determined to all pull together in a desperate attempt keep the company viable.

“There was an air of camaraderie, a feeling of hope.

“It was Australia Day that week and it fell on a Thursday. On the Friday thirty percent of our workforce didn’t turn up, thirty percent called in sick.

“That’s when I finally realised we were stuffed.” from Larry Pickering

That makes me laugh. Ford always schedule pdo's on days that fall between a public holiday and a weekend, melbourne cup for example, where the monday is always a pdo before the cup tuesday. That avoids these problems. Common sense isnt it to avoid issues like that happening. Toyota management incompetence to solve the issue is just as bad as the blokes who took sickies. It would have been an easy fix.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by b0son

2011G6E, the whole entitlements being a poofteenth of the running cost argument was a smokescreen. It was the overall cost of labour, which was a product of hourly rates, entitlements, flexibility arrangements, etc. The reality is that the dollar value of their work was way above award rates in an industry that wasn't turning a profit. Tell me how that's sustainable, and further, why its the taxpayer's responsibility to maintain it.

I know about the above award wages (nearly everyone in every industry gets "above the award", as it's a bare minimum requirement). I was just curious about the entitlements as they had been mentioned so often before as an excuse as to why a business isn't doing well.

And no...it's not the taxpayers responsibility to maintain it...they're not even "Australian" companies when push comes to shove. They're small divisions of massive foreign companies. The parent company can't be complained about if it wants to shut them down. Too many people think we have our own dinky-di Australian car industry. Nope. Not for decades...a lot of decades. The parent companies just happen to have small manufacturing arms here in Australia.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

I know about the above award wages (nearly everyone in every industry gets "above the award", as it's a bare minimum requirement). I was just curious about the entitlements as they had been mentioned so often before as an excuse as to why a business isn't doing well.

And no...it's not the taxpayers responsibility to maintain it...they're not even "Australian" companies when push comes to shove. They're small divisions of massive foreign companies. The parent company can't be complained about if it wants to shut them down. Too many people think we have our own dinky-di Australian car industry. Nope. Not for decades...a lot of decades. The parent companies just happen to have small manufacturing arms here in Australia.

retard is strong in this little gem

looks we dont even have a mining industry.. cos / foreign / owners

[Bossxr8]

Haha.

With that sort of logic we may as well say Australia isn't it's own country cause we are owned by the poms.

[Trump]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Haha.

With that sort of logic we may as well say Australia isn't it's own country cause we are owned by the poms.

That logic isn't as retarded as first impressions would imply. With all land in Australia vested in the Crown, that statement is quite accurate.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Haha.

With that sort of logic we may as well say Australia isn't it's own country cause we are owned by the poms.

Maybe we should take all foreign investment out of the country...then watch Australia turn to poo.

[Bossxr8]

Yeah, there isn't much left that is truly Australian owned and made.

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by b0son

And what effect does he have on others attitude/morale? Eventually, one by one, others start taking liberties because why be the only hard-working chump.

It wouldn't be an issue if you could easily move such workers along (simply the potential for it looming is enough to keep people from being too complacent), but you have to increasingly jump through hoops. Its simply becoming too much hassle to take people on. Automation FTW.

To true , abuse of the system is an age old problem in larger companies and a culture in the public service .
After 25 years of continuous employment in 3 different small businesses I am reaching a crossroads , due to age I am suffering more and more from the aches and pains of a physical job ( manually handle on average 3 - 5 ton a day up to 80 kg an item ) . Hence I am sussing out other opportunities , buying or starting a small business of my own is high on the agenda . I have the contacts and a pretty good grasp of the basic day in day out financial side of things , but you know what scares me the most , not the bank it's the employee who that (he usually ) is the biggest factor in if your able to 1 . get off the ground to start with and 2 . prosper .If you make a bad choice you are up against it straight away , and the last thing anyone needs is someone that thinks a sickie is an ENTITLEMENT . Never was and never has been !

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

In the private sector, often we have to work through lunch because customers demand service, and without customers there is no business.
In the public sector the 'customers' rely on you, they need you; they cant go anywhere else. Unlike the private sector...

We used to work through lunch until we got sick of our managers treating us like ****, you'd stay back 10-15 minutes after work each day to finish what you were doing and not get paid for it.

One day a cyclist got killed by a truck in front of the street where our workshop was, so we all got diverted around Tullamarine and I ended up clocking on 3 minutes late, and they docked my pay by 15 minutes.

Mind you over the last 4 years I had been getting to work 15-30 minutes early every morning.

So when that happened, when we were working on cars which they were desperate to go out, when the smoko and lunch bells went, we just dropped everything and left, bell to go home went we all just stopped and left, keeping customers cars off the road.

[BHDOGS]

Nah big damo aint you heard managers can tell you off when you do the wrong thing but never praise you for doing the right thing and i dont just mean doing your job i mean any extra effort put in i once worked 16 hours straight against every law in the country with no breaks do you think i got even a cheers for pulling us out of the ****. The other guy didnt show up do you mind working a double shift. while i was doing security for the tour down under i worked out the manager had stationed us at the wrong crossing and we wouldn't have been able to see the race approach which could of caused all types of **** like stopping the race with people on the track when i mentioned this do you think i got a thanks for the heads up for saving his job nope just a oh ok bye.

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

Nah big damo aint you heard managers can tell you off when you do the wrong thing but never praise you for doing the right thing and i dont just mean doing your job i mean any extra effort put in i once worked 16 hours straight against every law in the country with no breaks do you think i got even a cheers for pulling us out of the ****. The other guy didnt show up do you mind working a double shift. while i was doing security for the tour down under i worked out the manager had stationed us at the wrong crossing and we wouldn't have been able to see the race approach which could of caused all types of **** like stopping the race with people on the track when i mentioned this do you think i got a thanks for the heads up for saving his job nope just a oh ok bye.

There are self centered, thoughtless people, and there are caring, conscientious people on both sides of the fence, employees and management.

Not all managers treat their employees thoughtlessly, in the same way that not all employees are conscientious. It goes both ways.

[Road_Warrior]

My boss is one of the best bosses I've ever had, he's not only been a good boss but a good mentor as well.

And we've just been told he's being shunted out of the organisation in order to "rationalise" managerial positions.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

We used to work through lunch until we got sick of our managers treating us like ****, you'd stay back 10-15 minutes after work each day to finish what you were doing and not get paid for it.

One day a cyclist got killed by a truck in front of the street where our workshop was, so we all got diverted around Tullamarine and I ended up clocking on 3 minutes late, and they docked my pay by 15 minutes.

Mind you over the last 4 years I had been getting to work 15-30 minutes early every morning.

So when that happened, when we were working on cars which they were desperate to go out, when the smoko and lunch bells went, we just dropped everything and left, bell to go home went we all just stopped and left, keeping customers cars off the road.

Well that's just silly, the following week I would have stitched them up for 2 x 1hr poos a day for the week

Well in front

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Yeah, there isn't much left that is truly Australian owned and made.

Well we have the gun culture, bikies, etc etc. already. Soon we will get Mustang and probably Camaro. Can't get more American than that. Turn all our roads the other way around and Australia should become the 51st state already.

[Davehoos]

Im a child of bob hawk economics. enterprise bargaining. answer to the collapse of the 70's economy or the reason the 80-90's economic/social collapse.

before my time tradesmen rulled. then the been counters and university graduates dumped on us all. Taking 25 years but its slowly returning to the good old days.

One year my boss was replaced with a university graduate and I was docked 18 hours pay for time clock issues and the previous years holiday pay.
my workshop manerger after listening to the law being handed down payed us out of petty cash when he left. That company is no longer because the staff left.

I worked in private industry dealing with customers that don't want to pay..get a public service job people or price yourself out of the groundfeeder range. people pay if they are treated well.

still plenty of morrons to deal with but at 4pm you walk out the door and the morrons deal with the suits. That said ive done 4 hours overtime this month with breakdowns.

[ILLaViTaR]

Originally Posted by blackwasp

i understand both sides of the discussion, but on the flipside of the example that you used ( 30 year worker no sickies left) in my last job where the company relocated to another state and made us all redundant. there was a an employee who racked up 2600 hrs over 25 years in sick leave. this gentleman only received 164 hrs remuneration in his redundacy payout.
is this fair??

But who cares about a lifetime of loyalty he's too old to be of any further use to us anyway, pay him don't pay him, either way we'll never see him again after next week.
Besides we gave him lunch breaks and a chair for his work desk how much more could he need.

Regards Compassionate Management.

[ILLaViTaR]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

We used to work through lunch until we got sick of our managers treating us like ****, you'd stay back 10-15 minutes after work each day to finish what you were doing and not get paid for it.

One day a cyclist got killed by a truck in front of the street where our workshop was, so we all got diverted around Tullamarine and I ended up clocking on 3 minutes late, and they docked my pay by 15 minutes.

Mind you over the last 4 years I had been getting to work 15-30 minutes early every morning.

So when that happened, when we were working on cars which they were desperate to go out, when the smoko and lunch bells went, we just dropped everything and left, bell to go home went we all just stopped and left, keeping customers cars off the road.

That's EXACTLY how I quit one of my jobs, ***** manager, stay back 20min each shift unpaid still doing work, yet always abused for being 2 minutes late, so I started cancelling it out. If they kept me back 20min I came late 20min the next day, if I was kept back 8 minutes, I'd come 8 minutes late the next day. This still meant I was being unpaid at the end of my shifts still and of course not being paid for the time I'd missed coming late at the start of my shifts. So I started taking food/drink and made sure I took nearly double the value of food as I should've been paid in cash (not equal value). This lasted about a week until it got very heated (if it wasn't already) with me and the manager so I just stopped going in and a year later the place had gone bankrupt.

Domino's Pizza lol, the drivers need to count their money/float for orders at the end of the shift, by law domino's have to pay you to do this but they never did they always clocked us out every shift without fail. Then after counting our money we needed the manager to come confirm the total and sign the float out. We'd finish counting in 2min then had to wait an average for 15-20min for that fat ***** to waddle over from making pizza's to merely sign us out so we could go home. So you're standing there for 20 minutes unpaid watching everyone still working and struggling. Nope not even. The ***** manager screams your name every 5 seconds.. change bin, fill cheese, give me pans fully expecting you to do these things off the clock. Because you're that extra free hand doing nothing specific meaning you get all the **** jobs thrown at you as well. I was 18 then as were all the staff we didn't know we could get away with saying "no we're off shift" and if she fired us we could've take her to the tribunal.. People there did get fired for standing up for their workers rights as well, accc never did anything, the owner even claimed his boat off his tax (so he can deliver pizza's to French Island i guess ) and they never got audited. They did eventually get rooted by the franchise fees out of all things and went bankrupt. Probably started paying staff correctly and realized the business wasn't viable lol. I think there was a thread on here just a week ago with the opinion that hospitality/retail is generous lol. Maybe it meant the teenage/casual staff that work at those places?

[Vormund]

Back on topic (shockingly)

Lets see what happens when the FH is released and the Territory update. VE suffered quite the slump prior to VF.