Now Qantas 3000 jobs to go

[GASWAGON]

Latest news is 5,000 jobs not 3,000.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

I believe one of the reasons was to prevent cross comparison between pilots, engineers et al. couldnt compare salaries as aircraft were different!

fair enough, but should someone on one class of aircraft get double someone on another class gets?

[cheap]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

But at what cost? unless their going to jail the majority of CEO's that get shown the door usually pass through it with a huge smile on their face......

No doubt he has an air tight contract (or at least he thinks he has).

So do to him what Newman did to Anna Bligh's husband, assign him to the infamous "Special Projects division" make it so painful that he leaves on his own accord. Junior baggage handler would be to good for him.

[cheap]

The unions aren't too happy (no surprise), so they're talking about industrial action.

There has got to be another alternative to industrial action especially at this stage of the game. It would be so counter productive and will actually hurt their members and exacerbate an already bad situation - besides will make Joyce a martyr in some people's view.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by cheap

The unions aren't too happy (no surprise), so they're talking about industrial action.

There has got to be another alternative to industrial action especially at this stage of the game. It would be so counter productive and will actually hurt their members and exacerbate an already bad situation - besides will make Joyce a martyr in some people's view.

And if what I have alluded too is true then it will be to qantas managements plan. accelerating the decline.

If its not true then Im a freaking genius and they should have done it...Oh hang on !!!

JP

[GASWAGON]

To me it seems ALL of these BIG corporations plan well ahead and then even after they make these huge business changes thye still have plenty of power to change those decisions as the business and media tell all that is going on.

First it was 3,000.....now its 5,000.

Ford production was ???......Now its 90 per day.

They just make these changes as they go along because they're the ones paying the wages and in house accountants are telling the CEO's the business's ar'nt making money.

[ray38l]

Its got me worried because im in the process of joining the Air force as a Aircraft Technician. The plan was to get qualified and stay in for 6 or 10 years and then try get a job in the civillian world.
If QANTAS die then there wouldnt be too much maintenance done in Australia on aircraft. There would be no reason for Virgin to do anything other then the bare essential maintenance here.
Hopefully Everyone from governments to the irish man understand what is at stake.

[MITCHAY]

How this bloke still has a job with QANTAS let alone the top one is beyond me. Profit losses, job losses, grounds the fleet globally and the stock is not even worth anything.

I don't know how the QANTAS management and financial structures work but to most of us it must seem like they come up with some weird KPIs for him to still be CEO.

[ray38l]

Last time i checked The liberal party dont run an Airline

[xtremerus]

All Australian problems have just happened in the last 6 months. Yeah Right.

[calais]

Alan Joyce has a lot to answer for.

An awful lot.

He is much like a politician - All spin. Where the good results mate?

[cheap]

Buy some shares in Qantas (they're real cheap at the moment) and raise your issues at the next shareholders meeting.

No good blaming the Lib's because they've had a gut full delving through the sea of crap they've inherited from the previous mob.

The situation wouldn't be different if Rudd (heaven forbid) got re-elected - possibly worse as he'd have spent a trillion dollars by now.

This forum can't change what's happening.

[gtfpv]

like i said it may not be the libs fault . but where were all these shutdowns and sell outs when the opposition was in .i just think it's uncanny and too much of a co incidence that the last 6 months has seen a mass Australian exudes.
and i do think in the next month or so . buying QANTAS shares may be a very good idea

[cheap]

Oh and I wonder if the CO2 tax has any bearing on the situation, Qantas did mention the tax would cost it as much as $115 million.

Real helpful that CO2 tax is, remind me which party introduced that pearl?

[290GTP]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

like i said it may not be the libs fault . but where were all these shutdowns and sell outs when the opposition was in .i just think it's uncanny and too much of a co incidence that the last 6 months has seen a mass Australian exudes.
and i do think in the next month or so . buying QANTAS shares may be a very good idea

Last time I checked Fords closure was under a labor government. And the writing was already on the wall for Toyota & Holden.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

I believe one of the reasons was to prevent cross comparison between pilots, engineers et al. couldnt compare salaries as aircraft were different!

JP

A long running dispute for JQ A330 flight crew compared to QF A330 crew.

Simply put, JQ is what Alan Joyce wants QF to be. When you do an A320 endorsement you actually have to pay for your training. JQ offer prospective pilots low interest finance loans to pay for their training, and you can't just up and leave JQ without repaying your loan.
Furthermore, JQ is not paying the massively over inflated prices of flight crew in QF, so the airline is a lot more profitable.
I know of an instance where a JQ captain on a 2am flight was made to pay $3.50 for a pepsi-max from the passenger cart as there was no pepsi-max in the crew cart. To sum up, here's an extract I read a long time ago which shows how a disenfranchised workforce may react to accountants running an airline.

I am an Army of One (or 2, or 300, ...)

I am an army of One - A Captain in the Continental Airlines army.
For years I was a loyal soldier in Gordon's army. Now I fight my own war.
I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder.
They (CAL) used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes.
They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.

I used to save CAL a thousand pounds of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn".
I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book.
I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up.
I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.
I am an army of One.

I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort.
I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do.
I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold.
I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I do it for the rampers and agents who need the bonus money….but this too may change.
I used to call dispatch for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now I collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.

I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make CAL rich. Now it's to make CAL pay.

When they furlough more pilots than the rest, pilots that cost them 60 cents on the dollar - I will make them pay.
When they under-staff bases and over-work reserves to keep pilots downgraded, down-flowed, or downtrodden - I will make them pay.
When over-booked customers are denied boarding system wide, while jets are parked in the desert - I will make them pay.
When they force pilots, who have waited 12 years to become captains, to be FOs again - I will make them pay.
When they ask CAL pilots to show leadership at Express, and then deny them longevity - I will make them pay.
When they recall F/As for the summer, just to furlough them again in the fall like migrant workers - I will make them pay.
When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make them pay.

My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for CAL again. Until then, I am an Army of One…And I'm not alone!

[ltd]

Originally Posted by cheap

Oh and I wonder if the CO2 tax has any bearing on the situation, Qantas did mention the tax would cost it as much as $115 million.

Real helpful that CO2 tax is, remind me which party introduced that pearl?

300 million this year alone.
Sorry, but under the last 6 years of the ALP stewardship the union and Steve Verpenis has become all powerful and industrial action increased at Qantas by over three times that of previous years. Remember the fleet grounding of 2011? Don't get me wrong I hate and I mean really hate Alan Joyce, but the ALP and the unions really set the conditions for the perfect storm I alluded to earlier. At least Abbott and Hockey are talking to Qantas - back in 2011 before grounding the fleet Gillard refused to take Alan Joyces call even after he said he was going to ground the fleet over the impasse of industrial action and union demands.
In summary, the ALP and their union mates set a lot of time-bombs when they were in office, now the times up and **** be exploding everywhere.
If the ALP really wanted to help, they'd stop blocking the repeal of the carbon tax in the senate - that's 300 million saved per year which would have prevented today's announcement of 5000 job losses spurred on by a 250 million dollar loss. That 300 million would save a lot of those jobs.
Libs fault? Don't think so.

[cheap]

Many people will relate this joke to the "Qantas" experience...

A man is alone in an airport lounge.

A beautiful woman walks in and sit down at the table next to him. He decides because she's wearing a uniform, she's probably an off-duty flight attendant.

So he decides to have a go at picking her up by identifying the airline she flies for, thereby impressing her greatly. He leans across to her and says the British Airways motto : 'To Fly. To Serve'?

The woman looks at him blankly

He sits back and thinks up another line. He leans forward again and delivers the Air France motto: 'Winning the hearts of the world'?

Again she just stares at him with a slightly puzzled look on her face.

Undeterred, he tries again, this time saying the Malaysian Airlines motto
'Going beyond expectations'?

The woman looks at him sternly and says

'What the **** do you want?'

'Aha!' he says "Qantas!"

[pottery beige]

solid posting LTD

[ltd]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

solid posting LTD

Thanks mate.
It's indeed a sad day for 3500 people.
The 1500 management people being given their marching orders can seriously go and gratify themselves (swear-filter beater copyright 2014).

The worst part in all of this is that there are some seriously dedicated people who will be affected. Of the pilots, they are the finest of crews and are the greatest in the world. Several major accidents have been averted by the actions of these crew, from the most seasoned captain to the lowest time SO. Hopefully, something can be done without upsetting the apple cart and disadvantaging Virgin.

[neptune273]

what can I say? Qantas had to fold and all the other big companies. Having spent 20 years in the aviation game the biggest concern I have noted is laziness and greed. Bigger companies can absorb incompetent lazy dicks who hide in the system and go out of their way to screw over any one who might show them up all in their own attempt to get to the top. Trouble is good people get sacked or leave. I did support the union at one time but all I have seen now is the lazy ones are the most prominent union members who use the union as a weapon to screw over any one they choose. In smaller companies you have to work your butt of just to survive. As with most places their is the minority who are dedicated and very hard working that hold the place together who are an inspiration to work with. Trade training is now a joke and it seams that all the ohs bull s... is only a token effort aimed at immediate injury and the long term stuff is ignored. common cense has gone out the window and every thing is just getting to hard. all because there are to many d heads getting into the system and having to much say. pity its only going to get worse before it gets better. p.s. 98% of aircraft accidents are pilot error, yet they get payed more than engineers!!

[Charliewool]

Second that PB...
Ltd.. Excellently explained from someone who's been at the pointy end for the flying kangaroo... Thanks mate!

A question?.. Do you reckon Australia's global location has any bearing on Qantas's woes?
All major airline home bases seem to be a hub to elsewhere.. Emirates/Dubai.. Singapore/ Singapore etc etc... Australia is an end destination not a hub to anywhere..

[Jastel]

Some good points here, but it is probably a combo of many reasons for the current problems. How many people here fly only qantas? If people fly virgin to save $10 then they are part of the problem and really can't whinge when qantas closes.
Same deal with cars, petrol, food etc...
We all vote with our wallets and bear some blame.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

Second that PB...
Ltd.. Excellently explained from someone who's been at the pointy end for the flying kangaroo... Thanks mate!

A question?.. Do you reckon Australia's global location has any bearing on Qantas's woes?
All major airline home bases seem to be a hub to elsewhere.. Emirates/Dubai.. Singapore/ Singapore etc etc... Australia is an end destination not a hub to anywhere..

Not really. Qantas has always found a market and in the good old days people would prefer to fly Qantas over the competition. Popular culture has been nothing but kind to Qantas, and the marketing team at QF have done reasonable work in spite of those deplorable Bjork inspired "Spirit of Australia" ads.

What's hurt Qantas over the years has been several issues, predominantly bad management, militant unions wagering massive industrial action campaigns, recently compliant government, the Qantas Sales Act and competition.
If we break it down into each category hopefully it'll shed some light.

Bad Management - since the days of Geoff the airline has gone downhill fast. From fleet purchases to rationalisation. QF once had an order for 65 787's and options for 50 more. Whilst its introduction into service has been much the same as all new types it is indeed the game changer and is over 30% more fuel efficient than the equivalent 767; 20% more fuel efficient than the A330. Customers also love it. AJ cancelled those orders but has held the options. Further, the reactionary nature of management to AC like the 777 with extended ETOPS has left QF with older, more expensive fleet options. Problem is, as AC get older, they become more problematic and require more maintenance. Parts become harder to obtain for obsolete models too. The rationalisation mentality of maintenance has also destroyed the morale of staff too, and it has spread like a cancer.

Militant Unions - Some in the union refuse to believe QF is no longer a public service. When management has tried to remove the deadwood, the union has put staff on strike compounding the problem. In 2006, GD gave all maintenance 12 months to turn a profit. Each department then set about buying new equipment, changing layout and doing everything to become efficient. Of the 8 or 9 departments done all became profitable. Union leaders like Doug Cameron, Steve Pervenis and even Bill Shorten refused to play ball and called for rolling strikes. This undermined the efforts of thousands and as such it was cancelled. Further, on announcements of job losses the union has called for rolling strikes and done so rather badly - upsetting the public more than the airline. Short sighted greed by the union has cost the jobs of thousands.

Recent Compliant Government has made things far worse, especially given their affinity with the union movement who put them in power in the first place. The only reason they weren't shouting from the rooftops how much they hated Qantas (it murders baby carbons) is because those who were identified by the media didn't want to lose their chairman's lounge privileges. Dumb legislation like the carbon tax has just increased the costs to Qantas, and frankly the now oppositions refusal to work with the elected government on the issue has forced the QF boards hand.

The Qantas Sales Act - this has been one of the biggest problems for Qantas, from raising capital for fleet acquisitions to flying non profitable routes for RPT, the QSA alone is alone in the world of corporate governance that has been left in the past and hangs like a mill stone around a companies neck. Desperate restructuring which could have been effected over the years has been stymied repeatedly thanks to this act which Keating put in place to essentially keep the unions appetite for striking quelled over the sale of the airline in 1992.

As for competition - QF competes with other players which are predominantly government owned. Since the middle east told everyone to essentially go gratify themselves and OPEC raised the price of oil by over 1000%, airlines and even the humble car user have suffered. Further, airlines like EQ which get their fuel for a pittance (it's not entirely free) have much lower operating costs. What's more, the last government opened a number of routes for other airlines to fly including allowing players like Emirates to do quasi-domestic work through selective routing. Flights over the pacific used to have two players, now there are 7.
As I said in an earlier post the success that Qantas should have had has through a bad decision allowed a LCC (virgin) to become legacy, and it has taken the business away from QF.

So again, perfect storm and frankly I'm surprised QF has lasted this long with every hanger on bleeding them dry. It is the quintessential "Death by a thousand cuts" story.

[BHDOGS]

I don't know why people are upset at Joyce he did exactly what they wanted outsource qantas to **** to make more money for share holders

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

I don't know why people are upset at Joyce he did exactly what they wanted outsource qantas to **** to make more money for share holders

How do shareholders make money if they are not paid dividends and the stock is now junk status?

[BHDOGS]

You can't see how ditchin Aussie jobs outsourcing it and making the company more profitable through decreased costs is gonna help shareholders in the future? Id say its buisness 101

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

I don't know why people are upset at Joyce he did exactly what they wanted outsource qantas to **** to make more money for share holders

that is the problem these days . $$$$$ have become king over everything . and people are taught that respect is earned by those who take $$$$ away from people . and give it to bankers .
once upon a time people used to get together and stop this kind of thing . they gave it a name . it was called a (collective union) fair work for fair pay.the people decided what was fair. but that has all gone now . and the mighty $$$$ is the only authority. nothing else matters , and people have come to respect it over everything .

[GREGL]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

that is the problem these days . $$$$$ have become king over everything . and people are taught that respect is earned by those who take $$$$ away from people . and give it to bankers .
once upon a time people used to get together and stop this kind of thing . they gave it a name . it was called a (collective union) fair work for fair pay.the people decided what was fair. but that has all gone now . and the mighty $$$$ is the only authority. nothing else matters , and people have come to respect it over everything .

Did you not read LTD's posts , they are from the horses mouth , a man that is actually involved and unlike a pleb on the floor has an understanding of his industry . Sometimes it hurts to hear the truth , but what he has said sums up what is or has happened to our bigger companies .
You can hardly go on strike if you haven't got a job .

[NX74205]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

I don't know why people are upset at Joyce he did exactly what they wanted outsource qantas to **** to make more money for share holders

Originally Posted by gtfpv

that is the problem these days . $$$$$ have become king over everything .

Would you prefer if Qantas ceased to exist?

If companies weren't motivated by maximising profit, then they'd be dead.

Qantas is heading that way, because the Qantas Sale Act is forcing them to compete with one arm tied behind its back. The time has long since passed for it to be repealed, or at least amended to the extent that allows a greater percentage of foreign investment. QF needs investors any way they can get them, and can no longer be limited by an archaic Act enacted at a time when Qantas had 40% of all outbound Australian international traffic.