Melbourne Academic proposes Some Country Roads be cut to 80km/hr!!!!!!!!!!

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by superyob

I know it's a bit of a national sport to bash academics but many are hothouse flowers who sit in the hallowed halls of academia and pontificate to the rest of us plebs how things should operate. For such smart people, there is seemingly not a scrap of intelligence between many of them. That was my university experience anyway. Education is only useful if applied to the real world or lived experience... Data and facts can be used to suit any argument by selective presentation and omissions...

Certainly is a sport around here.
Given the scenario where 1-2 tonne projectiles manned by people whose skills range from 'Stunt driver' to barely competent shoe lace tiers hurtle across our vast road system whose opinion are we to listen to. The stunt driver who states speed limits are unconstitutional impediments to progress, the internet knob hiding behind a keyboard and online avatar or an 'Academic' whose job it is to research the cause and effect of societies actions, utilising the best in data gathering science and research abilities.
Yes Lies, damn lies and Statistics can be skewed tp prove almosrt anything, hence the peer review system in place on all University published papers.
Now I don't recall this thread starting as a result of a published paper, more so on the back of 'sensationalist' reporting of an opinion. Yes the Reported author has a history of publishing documents that call for speed reductions amongst other topics, it does not mean the 'Academic' is wrong.

Lastly, Its all well bitching and moaning about what someones researched opinion is, but they have managed to get themselves into a position of influence. They are obviously regarded as experts by those that need experts, and they may just use that influence to push their own agenda or that of their financier, should the peer review also agree, leaving the interweb heros, bandits and experts stand no chance of being heard.
If 'Academia' really are halfwits, then get your act together and provide a counter argument, peer review their findings, and counter their argument with science and better research. C'mon, its not hard even people with no real world experience are doing it. Imagine what you lot could do with your degrees and Doctorates from the school of life or school of hard Knocks or wherever you 'went' could achieve.

Im not an Academic either but value good research and regarded findings.

JP

[KiwiKilda]

We can all b itch and moan

The real Laws are
The Laws of physics
Force = Mass x Acceleration

they apply to everyone regardless of experience university degree or
Farm size

the truth is the people who say 80km
and those who say 125km

Can not tell you what distance it will take to....
stop their vehicle at either or any speed

because they have never had to do it and the thought of it
makes most fill their britches

The average vehicle regardless of ANCAP rating is about as much
protection as a layer of tinfoil in a serious accident at speed

My Favourite loonies of the holiday period were the
people towing at top speed in the wet tail gaiting other loonies
who were tail gaiting another loonie

How good are your tyres
When were your brakes last checked

Jesus on country road I do 72km/hr kind of
it is super fuel efficient and
Roos can kinda do that speed for short distances
seen em bounce of cars at 11:00am get up and keep going
beside me and then run off into the fields

Roos Wallabies Wombats potholes gravel rain

Floor it and brake floor it and brake floor it and brake
that is how some people drive

Go off the road in some locations no one will even find you for
a week

Come to think of it the misuss spotted glimpsed a car in the bush
maybe we should have stopped and checked

Oh well if you speed and loose it tough

Now I know how people drive I will stop and check next time
promise

[cs123]

Here is a list of some of the grants this researcher has been given recently

Grants

Title:
Evaluation of the Western Australian Speed Enforcement Strategy.
Investigators:
Newstead, S, Diamantopoulou, K, Cameron, M
Funding:
(2013 - 2014). OFFICE OF ROAD SAFETY WA.
Title:
An Economic Evaluation of the Introduction of Lower Rural Default and National Highway Speed Limits in Tasmania.
Investigators:
Cameron, M
Funding:
(2009). Department of Infrastructure, Energy and Resources (Tasmania).
Title:
Research to develop strategies for speed camera enforcement in Queensland.
Investigators:
Cameron, M
Funding:
(2008 - 2009). Queensland Transport [transport, AUS, QLD].
Title:
Research into aspects of a new Victoria Police traffic enforcement model.
Investigators:
Cameron, M
Funding:
(2008). Victoria Police [police.vic, AUS, VIC].
Title:
Evaluation of the Motorcycle Blackspot Program.
Investigators:
Newstead, S, McClure, R, Cameron, M, Corben, B, Scully, J, D'Elia, A
Funding:
(2008). VicRoads [vicroads.vic, AUS, VIC].
Title:
Victoria Police Region 1 Traffic Enforcement Effectiveness.
Investigators:
Cameron, M
Funding:
(2007). Victoria Police [police.vic, AUS, VIC].
Title:
Research to develop strategies for best practice in speed enforcement in Western Australia.
Investigators:
Cameron, M, Delaney, A
Funding:
(2006). Department of Premier & Cabinet WA.

[pottery beige]

thats hilarious Chris

he's a professional dh

[Bearman]

Originally Posted by cheap

Academic is code word for inner city fringe dweller, bicycle peddling, organic latte sippin' genius, who's greatest achievement is having successfully spend all their adult life sucking on the public teat being nurtured by other like minded university dills.

I reckon before these people are allowed to utter a single word, they should be subjected to 5 years hard labour working on a farm, clearly they need a good dose of real life experience.

I know the type, have been in the education system since grade prep. Never had a paying job, never done a days work in their life. These dweebs live their lives out of a text book and they think they can tell us, the great unwashed, how to live???? I think not!!!

I blame the school bullies....... didn't hit this bloke hard enough.

[NX74205]

Originally Posted by csv8

Put Sheldon in charge!!!!

He doesn't even drive! Remember that time when he drove Penny to the hospital? If he had his way, everyone would be doing 40km/h everywhere ...

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Certainly is a sport around here.
Given the scenario where 1-2 tonne projectiles manned by people whose skills range from 'Stunt driver' to barely competent shoe lace tiers hurtle across our vast road system whose opinion are we to listen to. The stunt driver who states speed limits are unconstitutional impediments to progress, the internet knob hiding behind a keyboard and online avatar or an 'Academic' whose job it is to research the cause and effect of societies actions, utilising the best in data gathering science and research abilities.
Yes Lies, damn lies and Statistics can be skewed tp prove almosrt anything, hence the peer review system in place on all University published papers.
Now I don't recall this thread starting as a result of a published paper, more so on the back of 'sensationalist' reporting of an opinion. Yes the Reported author has a history of publishing documents that call for speed reductions amongst other topics, it does not mean the 'Academic' is wrong.

Lastly, Its all well bitching and moaning about what someones researched opinion is, but they have managed to get themselves into a position of influence. They are obviously regarded as experts by those that need experts, and they may just use that influence to push their own agenda or that of their financier, should the peer review also agree, leaving the interweb heros, bandits and experts stand no chance of being heard.
If 'Academia' really are halfwits, then get your act together and provide a counter argument, peer review their findings, and counter their argument with science and better research. C'mon, its not hard even people with no real world experience are doing it. Imagine what you lot could do with your degrees and Doctorates from the school of life or school of hard Knocks or wherever you 'went' could achieve.

Im not an Academic either but value good research and regarded findings.

JP

The flaw in his logic is that he assumes that speed is a cause in every accident. He can do all the research he wants into road tolls and statistics, but the bottom line is that statistics can be - and in fact, are, if we are to believe the articles written by ex-HWP cops for Wheels magazine's petition to increase the speed limit to 130km/h - modified to suit one side of the argument.

There are multiple causes to road trauma, and speed is but one. His sole focus on speed as a factor is extremely narrow-minded. Other factors such as road conditions, weather conditions, driver distractions, driver attitude etc are not as thoroughly examined as speed - perhaps because there isn't as much readily available data, whereas speed at the time of impact can be easily approximated.

Just glancing through the list of his research for which he was given grants, it would appear very much to focus on speed enforcement rather than road safety. Road safety is a far, far broader issue than speed enforcement, and the overemphasis on speed is not helping to reduce the road toll. So what does he do? Instead of trying other avenues such as improving driver training and improving roads to eliminate at least two other variables that cause accidents, he places further emphasis on speed. That is a flawed approach. He started barking up the wrong tree, now he's climbing up it as well.

An academic should never be too proud to admit that he is wrong and re-think his approach to road safety rather than to constantly harp on about speed reduction as if it is the "holy grail" of reducing the road toll, because his narrowly focussed "research" said so.

[noflac52]

Take a look at the roadsense.com link that dragons90 posted today on the current thread about revenue raising that csv8 started. Its worth a read for a different point of view on this.

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by noflac52

Take a look at the roadsense.com link that dragons90 posted today on the current thread about revenue raising that csv8 started. Its worth a read for a different point of view on this.

It's the fault of all those speeding TREES! , and as for those power poles..book'em Danny!

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by NX74205

The flaw in his logic is that he assumes that speed is a cause in every accident.

No, the flaw in his logic is that reducing speed is the best option. even travelling at 80km/h is no guarentee that it will reduce the road toll further. we're already getting an advert campaign that driving tired is bad. driving at 80 would make that aspect worse.

We could keep or increase the current limit if the govt spent a little time on building better roads. not just keeping them in good condition, but building them properly in the first place. I often see new road sections that have pot holes in them before the road is completed.

[ryeman]

My mother, for some reason, never believed me when I said "the faster I go, the less time I spend on the road" why...I know not.....seemed logical to me

[UberKnee]

Real world result of this: longer drive times, which leads to more tired drivers which creates more crashes and deaths.

Just another anti speed message.

Really though the number one aspect that needs to be sorted out with driving in Australia is the condition of roads. Compared to other countries, hell even some third world countries our roads are just dirt paths dodgily repaired only after there's been a few crashes there.

[ryeman]

This refers to Vic, connecting roads might go 20-30 km generally at most.
A P plater at night in the poring rain is legally entitled to drive at the posted limit.
We survivors are lucky to whinge n moan.

[Itsme]

The Academic Max Cameron is not proposing the speed reduction for safety alone, he is proposing it for the economical side of road trauma costs.

In other words it is about saving money for government spending.

“What the calculations show is that if you reduce the speed to those speed limits there would be an overall benefit to society because the reduction in road trauma and the costs would be greater than the cost of increased travel time.”

[dragons90]

More likely more money from speed cameras.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by dragons90

More likely more money from speed cameras.

That is an extra gain to Govco.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by NX74205

The flaw in his logic is that he assumes that speed is a cause in every accident. He can do all the research he wants into road tolls and statistics, but the bottom line is that statistics can be - and in fact, are, if we are to believe the articles written by ex-HWP cops for Wheels magazine's petition to increase the speed limit to 130km/h - modified to suit one side of the argument.

Agreed hence my call to counter his argument with equally weighted research proving an alternate opinion.
I don't want my governments spending huge amounts of taxpayer money on a 'hunch' or what an internet chat agreed was the way to go. All they have is the data that can be collected.
(tongue in cheek) Ill declare speed is a factor in every impact. My reasoning: at the time of impact you should have been stationary some meter or so behind! you were moving too fast hence the impact!

Originally Posted by NX74205

There are multiple causes to road trauma, and speed is but one. His sole focus on speed as a factor is extremely narrow-minded. Other factors such as road conditions, weather conditions, driver distractions, driver attitude etc are not as thoroughly examined as speed - perhaps because there isn't as much readily available data, whereas speed at the time of impact can be easily approximated.

Again (see below) most of his published documents are research on a wide range of trauma based topics, only 1 or 2 on speed

Originally Posted by NX74205

Just glancing through the list of his research for which he was given grants, it would appear very much to focus on speed enforcement rather than road safety. Road safety is a far, far broader issue than speed enforcement, and the overemphasis on speed is not helping to reduce the road toll. So what does he do? Instead of trying other avenues such as improving driver training and improving roads to eliminate at least two other variables that cause accidents, he places further emphasis on speed. That is a flawed approach. He started barking up the wrong tree, now he's climbing up it as well.

Of course he gets grants to research those topics! the government or authority needs research done so goes to the expert, who is also and expert in research, that's why they don't pop in here and ask us!. Thats how he earns his weekly pay doing research and formulating responses to paying clients, Much I dare say like most of us, doing what the client wants.
As for driver training, I say bring in a German style licensing system. I can see you all up in arms about that too, it costs circa 2000 Euro to accumulate what their society declares is enough experience to hold a license

Originally Posted by NX74205

An academic should never be too proud to admit that he is wrong and re-think his approach to road safety rather than to constantly harp on about speed reduction as if it is the "holy grail" of reducing the road toll, because his narrowly focussed "research" said so.

I wouldnt have called his published work narrow focussed, sure it focusses on Transport but he is a 'expert' in this field. The books that he has published (referenced Below) are to do with subjects like correlating crash data with car age, and crash worthiness, demerit points and crash statistics, Evaluation of radar strategies, road trauma trends, assessment of publicity of country RBT stations. Its only a number of his journal articles that describe speed as an issue, and the one that sparked this debate, from 2012, highlighted in Bold) relates to the cost of trauma to the community not speed contributing to it.

JP


Newstead, S.V., Cameron, M., Leggett, M., 1999, Evaluation of the Queensland Random Road Watch Program, Monash University Accicdent Research Centre, Melbourne Vic Australia.


Newstead, S.V., Cameron, M., 1999, Updated correlation of results from the Australian New Car Assessment Program with real crash data from 1987 to 1996, Monash University Accident Research Centre, Melbourne Vic Australia.


Newstead, S.V., Cameron, M., Le, C., 1999, Vehicle crashworthiness ratings and crashworthiness by year of vehicle manufacture: Victoria and NSW crashes during 1987-97, Queensland crashes during 1991-6, Monash University Accident Research Centre, Melbourne Vic Australia.


Diamantopoulou, K., Cameron, M., Shtifelman, M., 1998, Evaluation of moving mode radar for speed enforcement in Victoria, 1995-1997, Monash University Accident Research Centre, Melbourne Vic Australia.


Newstead, S.V., Cameron, M., Narayan, S., 1998, Further modelling of some major factors influencing road trauma trends in Victoria: 1990-96, Monash University Accident Research Centre, Melbourne Vic Australia.


Newstead, S.V., Cameron, M., Le, C., 1998, Vehicle crashworthiness ratings and crashworthiness by year of vehicle manufacture: Victoria and NSW crashes during 1987-96, Monash University Accident Research Centre, Melbourne Vic Australia.


Newstead, S.V., Cameron, M., 1997, Correlation of results from the New Car Assessment Program with real crash data, Monash University Accident Research Centre, Melbourne Vic Australia.


Cameron, M., Diamantopoulou, K., Mullan, N., Dyte, D., Gantzer, S., 1997, Evaluation of the country random breath testing and publicity program in Victoria, 1993-1994, Monash University Accident Research Centre, Melbourne Vic Australia.


Diamantopoulou, K., Cameron, M., Dyte, D., Harrison, W.A., 1997, The relationship between demerit points accrual and crash involvement, Monash University Accident Research Centre, Melbourne Vic Australia.


Newstead, S.V., Cameron, M., Le, C., 1997, Vehicle crashworthiness ratings and crashworthiness by year of vehicle manufacture: Victoria and NSW crashes during 1987-95, Monash University Accident Research Centre, Melbourne Vic Australia

Cameron, M.H., 2013, Use of Kloeden et al's relative risk curves and confidence limits to estimate crashes attributable to low and high level speeding, Journal of the Australasian College of Road Safety [P], vol 24, issue 3, Australasian College of Road Safety, Australia, pp. 40-52.


Cameron, M.H., 2012, Optimum speeds on rural roads based on 'willingness to pay' values of road trauma, Journal of the Australasian College of Road Safety [P], vol 23, issue 3, Australasian College of Road Safety, Australia, pp. 67-74.


Cameron, M.H., Elvik, R., 2010, Nilsson's Power Model connecting speed and road trauma: applicability by road type and alternative models for urban roads, Accident Analysis and Prevention [P], vol 42, Elsevier, United Kingdom, pp. 1908-1915.


Belin, M., Tillgren, P., Vedung, E., Cameron, M., Tingvall, C., 2010, Speed cameras in Sweden and Victoria, Australia-A case study, Accident Analysis and Prevention [P], vol 42, issue 6, Elsevier, UK, pp. 2165-2170.


Cameron, M., Delaney, A., 2010, Speed enforcement - effects, mechanisms, intensity and economic analysis of each mode of operation, Les Cahiers Scientifiques du Transport [P], vol 57, L'Asssociation Francaise des Instituts de Transport et de Logistique, France, pp. 1-17.


Newstead, S.V., Watson, L.M., Cameron, M.H., 2007, An index for rating the total secondary safety of vehicles from real world crash data, Annual Proceedings of the Association for the Advancement of Automotive Medicine, Association for the Advancement of Automotive Medicine, Barrington Il USA, pp. 263-280.


D'Elia, A.D., Newstead, S.V., Cameron, M.H., 2007, Overall impact of speed-related initiatives and factors on crash outcomes, Annual Proceedings of the Association for the Advancement of Automotive Medicine, Association for the Advancement of Automotive Medicine, Barrington Il USA, pp. 465-484.


Delaney, A.K., Ward, H., Cameron, M.H., Williams, A.F., 2005, Controversies and speed cameras: lessons learnt internationally, Journal of Public Health Policy, vol 26, issue 4, Palgrave Macmillan Ltd, UK, pp. 404-415.


Cameron, M.H., Newstead, S.V., Diamantopoulou, K., Oxley, P.E., 2003, The interaction between speed camera enforcement and speed-related mass media publicity in Victoria, Australia, Annual Proceedings of the Association for the Advancement of Automotive Medicine, vol 47, Association for the Advancement of Automotive Medicine, Barrington IL USA, pp. 267-282.


Newstead, S.V., Narayan, S., Cameron, M.H., Farmer, C.M., 2003, U.S. consumer crash test results and injury risk in police-reported crashes, Traffic Injury Prevention, vol 4, issue 2, Taylor and Francis, Philadelphia PA USA, pp. 113-127.


Newstead, S.V., Cameron, M., Leggett, M., 2001, The crash reduction effectiveness of a network-wide traffic police deployment system, Accident Analysis & Prevention, vol 33, issue 3, Pergamon-Elsevier Science Ltd, Oxford UK, pp. 393-406.


Diamantopoulou, K., Cameron, M.H., 2000, An example of the synergy between Police enforcement and associated mass-media publicity in reducing crashes, Journal of Traffic Medicine, vol 28, issue 2S, IATM, USA, pp. 19-20.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

Really though the number one aspect that needs to be sorted out with driving in Australia is the condition of roads. Compared to other countries, hell even some third world countries our roads are just dirt paths dodgily repaired only after there's been a few crashes there.

We have the worlds 8 the largest national roadway length at 823,217km's
the 7 nations above us in total length include the US, Russia, china, India Brazil and japan Canada and France. The smallest population in that list is near on twice as large as the Australian population.
Having been to many of those countries, not all, but enough I can say we generally have great roads, and the equal to many in the rural regions. And we have half to a fraction of a percent of their population to pay for it.

When you take into account the rest of the cost of running a country for example the SA education budget runs at approximately 3 billion, the SA arts gets 20 million, the Department of Planning, Transport and Infrastructure has just announced 36 Billion to be spent on new works over and above maintenance over the next 10-15 years. which will mean spending on transport will rival education spend...not including maintenance which is about 1.2-1.5 billion per year just in SA. To improve the roads etc to your demanded standards will mean significant cuts elsewhere or god forbid, tax increases remember only 21-22 million people paying for a road infrastructure equivalent to one owned by 35 - 1.1 billion people.
JP

[cheap]

Originally Posted by trublu

The Academic Max Cameron is not proposing the speed reduction for safety alone, he is proposing it for the economical side of road trauma costs.

In other words it is about saving money for government spending.

If reducing cost associated from road accident related trauma is the aim, then there is also the option of removing ALL safety devices from all cars. When people crash they die instead of requiring expensive medical care - saving money for Govco. Another option would be to remove ALL compensation people receive from having accidents - saving Govco money too.

[KiwiKilda]

Reality as it is -
In my recent Country Driving
I came across one Large Back Cow
bit upset as it was separated from its calf

stopped and managed to get it through a gate and back on "The Farm"

another bit of Road Large Wallaby
heading straight towards me being chased/hearded by a 4wd
we both had to stop and let the panicked animal sort out an escape route

Trees:
Aussie hard wood is stronger than metal
me Father in law was a lineman in the days they used em as powerpole
hated them sw all the carnage

Geezer in me campsite counted 23 wombats on an evening drive

add that to the potholes and soft edges

Reality is you cant talk speed with out
talking stopping distances

otherwise you are jest kidding your self

it is all theoretical twaddle until you "have to" brake

[Hulsty]

So even with speed limits of 100km/h on some of the country goat tracks, why are people not driving to the conditions? Better education and training is the key

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Yes Lies, damn lies and Statistics can be skewed tp prove almosrt anything, hence the peer review system in place on all University published papers.
JP

You hit the nail on the head with one of the problems here - the "peer review system"

So the thoughts of one bicycle riding, anti freeway, vegan, cardigan with elbow patches wearing, forgot to shave, never seen a hairdresser, left wing, recycled water drinking academic are reveiwed by other bicycle riding, anti freeway, vegan, cardigan with elbow patches wearing, forgot to shave, never seen a hairdresser, left wing, recycled water drinking academics.

Then you see what occasionally happens when a steak eating, highrise living, loves the footy sporting shooter academic slipped past the gates and gives his thoughts on something like global warming - he is called a "denier" and ostracized.

[BHDOGS]

Captain generalization to the rescue awayyyuuyyyyyyyy

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by tweeked

You hit the nail on the head with one of the problems here - the "peer review system"

So the thoughts of one bicycle riding, anti freeway, vegan, cardigan with elbow patches wearing, forgot to shave, never seen a hairdresser, left wing, recycled water drinking academic are reveiwed by other bicycle riding, anti freeway, vegan, cardigan with elbow patches wearing, forgot to shave, never seen a hairdresser, left wing, recycled water drinking academics.

Then you see what occasionally happens when a steak eating, highrise living, loves the footy sporting shooter academic slipped past the gates and gives his thoughts on something like global warming - he is called a "denier" and ostracized.

Hence my call to the latter! stop complaining about the hippie love child and do something about it!
The criticism around here of the 'Academic' paints them as incompetent fools (I am educated, a pedestrian first, cyclist second and driver third, I drink recycled water like every human being and am vegetarian and probably am left wing So I too am a fool, yet I have a 450HP Mk1 escort race car , Highly modified AWD suzuki Swift day car and Falcon ute tow/country car and have driven near 1 million Km's over 30 years on 4 continents, so maybe only half a fool!)
The point being the 'denier' or counter arguer has no basis to make an argument other than anecdote, bias and guesswork, my-brothers-mothers-sister had-a-good-day sort of stories.
Yet the so called internet expert into transport matters sits and complains, insulting people they have never met, generalising and essentially proves the 'Academics' point.
If you don't like it change it, many of you all think its easy, go get a grant and prove the 'Academic' wrong, the way some of you type should be able to do it by lunch on monday.

JP

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Hence my call to the latter! stop complaining about the hippie love child and do something about it!
The criticism around here of the 'Academic' paints them as incompetent fools (I am educated, a pedestrian first, cyclist second and driver third, I drink recycled water like every human being and am vegetarian and probably am left wing So I too am a fool, yet I have a 450HP Mk1 escort race car , Highly modified AWD suzuki Swift day car and Falcon ute tow/country car and have driven near 1 million Km's over 30 years on 4 continents, so maybe only half a fool!)
The point being the 'denier' or counter arguer has no basis to make an argument other than anecdote, bias and guesswork, my-brothers-mothers-sister had-a-good-day sort of stories.
Yet the so called internet expert into transport matters sits and complains, insulting people they have never met, generalising and essentially proves the 'Academics' point.
If you don't like it change it, many of you all think its easy, go get a grant and prove the 'Academic' wrong, the way some of you type should be able to do it by lunch on monday.

JP

That's what happens when yous got edjukayshun!

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

If you don't like it change it, many of you all think its easy, go get a grant and prove the 'Academic' wrong, the way some of you type should be able to do it by lunch on monday.

JP

I am smart enough to not waste my time applying to a government department for a grant to study how reducing speed will do nothing to reduce the road toll. It is counter revenue productive, and so of no interest to any goverment departments

I would much rather continue to develop my silly walk in my spare time.

[KiwiKilda]

Time for a Verse of
"Jordan is a Hard Road"
all about that there Henry Ford Fella

I this blastin on the DVD gadget in the Falcon as I is doin
72km/hr holdin people up an p issin them off
or doing 110 as the case may be

passin them smokin holdens

All bout Henry
and his automobiles and how they ruined everything

Now some of them Country Roads is a little bit Country
and some are jest little Bit Rock n Roll

This is Blue Grass
http://youtu.be/v5LbedYmvso



. I'm gonna sing you a brand new song,
It's all the truth for certain;
We cain't live high, but we can get by,
And get on the other side of Jordan.

CHORUS:
Oh, pull off your overcoat and roll up your sleeves,
Jordan's a hard road to travel;
Oh, pull off your overcoat and roll up your sleeves,
Oh, Jordan is a hard road to travel, I believe.

2. The public schools and the highways
Are raisin' quite an alarm;
Get a country man educated just a little,
And he ain't a-gonna work on the farm. CHO.

3. I don't know, but I b'lieve I'm right,
The auto's ruined the country;
Let's go back to the horse and buggy,
And try to save some money. CHO.

4. I know a man that's an evangelist,
His tabernacle's always full;
People come from miles around
Just to hear him shoot the bull. CHO.

5. You may talk about your evangelist,
You may talk about Mister Ford too;
Well, Henry's shakin' more hell out of folks Than all the evangelists do. CHO.

6. Rain forty nights, gonna rain forty days,
Gonna rain on the Allegheny mountains;
Gonna rain forty horses and dominicker mules,
Gonna take us on the other side of Jordan. CHO.

[Peter Tee]

Originally Posted by tweeked

I am smart enough to not waste my time applying to a government department for a grant to study how reducing speed will do nothing to reduce the road toll. It is counter revenue productive, and so of no interest to any goverment departments

I would much rather continue to develop my silly walk in my spare time.

Well said, I agree if it doesn't RAISE revenue for the "Fat Cats" of politics it has no place in the system,!
what most academics turn into a 1000 page report, could be summed up by the cleaner at the local in one sentence, " there's some idiots on the roads,!" simple analysis of the facts, !

Originally Posted by ryan.faulks

I can confirm the above quote (with a BF XR8). Took me about 2.5hrs all up to remove and replace the alternator. I think I read somewhere that someone took the whole inlet plenum off, bugger that. Without that info, replacing the alternator would have taken me ages, so thank you.

[Peter Tee]

It would be interesting to see the " balance sheet" the German government uses to tally up the cost of "open speed limits" and there cost in Trauma, etc.
against Dollars/Euros spent by "heavy Wallet " tourists who travel to Germany, to indulge in the running of the Autobahns,!! I would bet there is a positive revenue flow in there somewhere, ?

[b0son]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Im not an Academic either but value good research and regarded findings.

You need to realize, academics are not typically going to bite the hand that feeds them.

eg. Kloeden et al, and their study that showed crash risk doubles for every 5kmh above the speed limit.

when re-analysed by Lambert, he found that the findings were not in fact true, that the analysis had been performed in such a way as to distort the findings and previously demonstrated relationships (ie. speed relative to traffic speed determines risk) held true.

Its great to have faith in brainiacs, but as a former uni brainiac myself, I can tell you, they publish what will get them more funding.

[KiwiKilda]

Lawdy if you want to Talk German Roads Cars on this here Forum
get yerself a BMW or Merc the only thing those things do Faster

is break down faster

ANother Blue Grass Song About them Country Roads
and how you gotta slow down for the curves


Henry Ford's Model A
http://youtu.be/ztTOOreJRpQ

All you folks, listen to what I say
Buy a new Ford that they call the Model A
Old John Henry sure knew his biz
When he said "I'm going to make a lady out of Liz."

Now a feller bought one just the other day
And went to try it out on the new highway
He got to sixty, well he lost his nerve.
He forgot to shut it off when he went around the curve.

Now he passed two Packards and a Cadillac, too
With his speed meter sittin' on seventy-two
Folks along the road, they could hear him shout
"The darn thing in second and I can't get her out."

Now if you want to get the girls, I tell you what to do
Buy a new Ford that's big enough for two
When you go for a ride, she'll greet you with a smile
And she'll want to stop and kiss every time you go a mile.

Now if you want to get to heaven, I'll give you all a tip
Buy an old Ford, it'll surely make the trip
But if your gonna go a touring, buy a Model A
It'll out run the Devil and you're sure to get away.

Chorus [came to Carl Baron in a dream]
Henry Ford, chuggin' down the highway
Henry Ford in his Model A (or "tryin' to get away" or "in his
Chevrolet")
Henry Ford, chuggin' down the highway
He's going to make Heaven on Judgment Day. [cb - this last line is a
political statement]