The drug "Ice"

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by gossy

.....but, how about our so called Justice System makes them think twice before they even contemplate the thought?

Does it?
How many people are on Ice in this country now?

How many people have tried illicit drugs over the years?

If law enforcement worked this thread wouldn't exist.

[Franco Cozzo]

We've got a lot of people suggesting simple fixes and complaints about those who are in charge and running this show.

Well fellas since you all know the answers to all the questions, which electorates will you be in the running for preselection with one of our two major parties and how do you plan to convince your fellow representatives to vote yes to your solution?

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

Who said they are working for no reimbursement??

They are working to pay their way, something most have never done.

I have paid my way since I was 15 years old, now nearly 50 I still pay my way by working a full time job, and I have done so since being 15, and plan to do so for the rest of my life.

Why should these people be any different?? What makes them so special that exempts them from having a job and going to work?? Why are they living and eating for free spending their life being a drain on the system??

They tie up law enforcement, welfare, government agencies, tax monies, etc etc without ever contributing to society.

Making them work is not slavery, people paying and funding their own existence is not slavery, it's just not being an oxygen thief.

As I said there's international laws preventing it so it's really a non-issue.

So...
Aren't we better off trying to make these people better and therefore re-entering society and adding to it?
Or...Do we keep on the strict zero tolerance policy and continue on the road we are and they continue to be a drain on society? For life!

One of the links someone put up was showing the Ice epidemic in rural Australia.
There was a kid who was 13 at the time IIRC. Bikies got hold of him (a child) gave him free drugs and taught him how to cook the stuff. He became a menace on society.
He's trying to clean himself up. Got himself away from the bikies and it seems has suffered tremendously in doing so. Isn't that a better outcome than leaving him rot in and out of gaols for the rest of his life supplying even more kids?

He can only spend 2 weeks at a time at the rehab centre because of a lack of funding. Well there's 60-70k$ a year saved already by him not being in gaol.
Nobody needs to hand over their tv or be taxed higher. Just re-appropriate the funding that's already out there.

[maat1985]

From my personal experience what was required for me was to step away from everyone that i knew who was involved and i was on anti pshycotics for 1 year after.
I suppose i was lucky that the pshycological affects that i suffered were only temporary. Everyone that i tell.my story to does not believe that i am an addict as my life is in good order. Do not think that i am blowing my own trumpet here but i have a very very high IQ in the top ten percentile of the worlds population and i still.made that choice. Since cleaning myself up there is no change in that regard either. Some people like myself are lucky and qill not have long lasting problems due to it.
For those who have done damage to their brain to a much further extent they need the same help that is available to any sufferer if mental illness. Be it pshycological treatment and or medication.
But as to how to help an addict who has done permanent damage to themselves is not an easy question to answer. Everybody falls into a different catagory with varying problems. Some like myself may be fine with a relatively small course of treatment. Some may require permanent pshycological help some may require permanent medication. Some may unfortunatley destroyed their brain to a point where they will never be the same. But at the end of the day no one persons story will be the same as anybody elses and it us unfair to group all users into the same catagory as none are the same.
Anybody who is a user or anybody who has any addiction be it gambling, alcohol, or any kind of drugs deserves the opportunity to get help. Most people with addiction suffer an underlying illness to begin with. Be it depression, anger management issues ir so on and it is that which they need the help with so that once they break the addiction they do not fall back down the same path again.
If someone has a gambling problem everybody wants to help. We work out why they gamble and then work out how to make them stop.
If someone has an alcohol problem we get them to stop drinking then we address their triggers and give them tolls to use to not drink.
We need to do the same to people affected by this devastating drug.
As i said not everybody can be put into the same group. Everybody needs to be looked at and then treated as the induvidual they are with the unique needs that they have.
In the worst case where someone has fried their brain beyond repair then unfortunately the only help for them is inside a mental hospital. And you never know maybe one day with the right counseling and medication maybe they will be whole again. But we as a society should never give up on someone who has problems. You never know it may be you one day who needs the help.

[GasoLane]

Stay on topic please ?

[maat1985]

Yes as i said i did smoke ice.
There are many reasons as to what draws someone to drugs. If you put the negative side of things aside and look at what it does it is easy to see why. It gives you boundless enrgy amd strength allows you to do what you would never be able to in an amount of time that you could not believe. It makes you incredibley focused. Super quick. Insanely strong heck there is no better feeling...
When i started using it was not the problem that it is today and it was relatively little known and i had no idea of its bad side effects.
But aside from that the people who do use it never plan on getting addicted. They can see the bad that it can do but they only plan on taking it once or twice on a few occasions here and there and they think that will not allow the bad things to affect them. However before you know it you are no longer in control and it is in comtrol of you and that is where the problems start.
So in short the reasons why people take it is that they believe the bad will not happen to them cus they will be in control of how much they use and when they use and they believe they will not get addicted. That is inbuilt into human nature. It is the same mindset as to why people speed. "I will not crash" the same mindset as to why people smoke "i will not get cancer". The same reason why people do anything that may have negative side effects. "It will not happen to me"
Unfortunatley it is all to easy to lose control to the monster known as ice.

[Mercury Bullet]

I wish you well.

Do the cravings ever completely go away?

[maat1985]

Yes they do in the semse that i never feel that i need it.. i never even feel that i want it... i do feel like i should.avoid any situation that there may be ice around as temptatio n is a very strong thing.
I do feel like if i was to ever try it again even just once then the whole problem would just begin again.
The key is to not hide from your problem. The key is to admit that you have a problem not that you did have a problem but thaf you still do. Exactly the same as how a reformed alcoholic is still an alcoholic and can never drink again I am a still a drug addict.
I have been clean however for 11 years...

[lgpking22]

It is amazing how adding a human side to a drug problem like maats story can immediately lead to a change of direction in a thread its easy to yell and scream about addicts and drugs but when your face to face with the problem its a different story congrats matt on sharing with us all you have certainly softened my stance on it althought i will add our justice system is a joke its main issue is you can only ever go to prison no matter how many people you murder rape children you rape and murder all you will get is prison. In all honestly the victim should have a direct say in sentencing more then they do in my eyes crime should be punished eye for an eye in someone else s case they might want rehabilitation. I feel giving the victim a more prominent say would make our justice system alot better as you would feel youve received justice not someone elses version of it.

[pottery beige]

solid posts bud

thanks for sharing

[b0son]

Originally Posted by lgpking22

In all honestly the victim should have a direct say in sentencing more then they do in my eyes crime should be punished eye for an eye in someone else s case they might want rehabilitation. I feel giving the victim a more prominent say would make our justice system alot better as you would feel youve received justice not someone elses version of it.

I think one of the major reasons people have a short fuse where drugs are concerned is because time and again, they're used by the courts as mitigating factors where sentencing is concerned, and frankly, they shouldn't. We know enough about the effects drugs/alcohol/etc have on behaviour to know there's a risk we'll do something bad. Why should we then be surprised when we do and try to hide behind the drug? We took it with our eyes open, we should be prepared to accept the consequences of our actions.

WRT to my comments above re: jail, I'm not saying people who take drugs need to be locked up simply over possession. But if they commit a crime as a result of their drug use, be it to support the habit, or because they lose control of themselves as a result of it, they absolutely should be held accountable as if there was no drug, as if they made a conscious decision to commit the act.

[lgpking22]

everything is used as a mitigating factor these days drugs alcohol being touched as a child mother not loving you your uncle not repaying you 20 dollars in 1985 thats mostly the lawyers fault with there bull**** trickery

[maat1985]

i am more than happy to share my story and will always elaborate more as to my experiences. what i was like while on the drug. what it was like to get off it and so on.

I think one of the major reasons people have a short fuse where drugs are concerned is because time and again, they're used by the courts as mitigating factors where sentencing is concerned, and frankly, they shouldn't. We know enough about the effects drugs/alcohol/etc have on behaviour to know there's a risk we'll do something bad. Why should we then be surprised when we do and try to hide behind the drug? We took it with our eyes open, we should be prepared to accept the consequences of our actions.

WRT to my comments above re: jail, I'm not saying people who take drugs need to be locked up simply over possession. But if they commit a crime as a result of their drug use, be it to support the habit, or because they lose control of themselves as a result of it, they absolutely should be held accountable as if there was no drug, as if they made a conscious decision to commit the act.

i agree 1000% people make a choice to take the drug. they do not make the choice as to what they do while on the drug however they do make the choice to take the drug.
but the punishment should be looked at similar to that of someone who commits a crime due to mental illness. if someone who has a mental illness commits a crime they will be put into a mental hospital and given support and treatment until such a time comes as it is shown they are fit once again for society
i believe the right way to to punish drug users is to put the into a forced rehab program followed by counselling and medication where necessary until such a time when they are deemed to be free from the chains of the monster. at which time they should face court again to be issued with a community service order that will slowly allow them back into the community while also giving back and hopefully helping to put others down the right path.
it is my belief that this process would sort out the good people with good hearts who got messed up in the wrong stuff and made mistakes and genuinely deserve a second chance from those people who are criminals and will always be criminals and deserve to be locked up as criminals.

[chamb0]

How did you begin the road to recovery maat1985 and what was the best thing others did to help? During your using, how do you think intervention would have played out for you, under the different approaches of either courts/conviction/gaol or courts/rehab/medical care?

Thanks for sharing your story.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by maat1985

i am more than happy to share my story and will always elaborate more as to my experiences. what i was like while on the drug. what it was like to get off it and so on.

i agree 1000% people make a choice to take the drug. they do not make the choice as to what they do while on the drug however they do make the choice to take the drug.
but the punishment should be looked at similar to that of someone who commits a crime due to mental illness. if someone who has a mental illness commits a crime they will be put into a mental hospital and given support and treatment until such a time comes as it is shown they are fit once again for society
i believe the right way to to punish drug users is to put the into a forced rehab program followed by counselling and medication where necessary until such a time when they are deemed to be free from the chains of the monster. at which time they should face court again to be issued with a community service order that will slowly allow them back into the community while also giving back and hopefully helping to put others down the right path.
it is my belief that this process would sort out the good people with good hearts who got messed up in the wrong stuff and made mistakes and genuinely deserve a second chance from those people who are criminals and will always be criminals and deserve to be locked up as criminals.

Hi maat1985, thanks for sharing your experiences, can you tell us anything about this 'ice rage' that we hear about, what types of things trigger it, is there ay way to switch it off.
Did you have any episodes when you thought you would harm someone.

[maat1985]

at the time i had the support of my mother who never once said anything negative about what had happened she was only ever there to help me see the road forward. i had one of my best mates who was always there for me and making sure that i did not just slip into being a depressed recluse.
it is hard to explain what happened exactly. at the time i was a baker working the night shift (which is the reason why i started down this road in the first place and why i will never work night shift work again) i wanted to be able to have my life during the day and evenings with my mates cus i found whenever they wanted to do anything i either needed to sleep or was working. Ice meant that i could go out, go to work and then do stuff during the day. repeat this process and i was only sleeping maybe once or twice a week.
one night at work things were really bad i was hearing people up in the airvents at work and thought they were coming to kill me. i kept trying to tell myself i was just tripping out but after a while i could not tell myself any longer it was just too real. this was not the first time i had had hallucinations by the way it was just the final straw. i was seeing and hearing things alot. particularly when driving which was very very bad.
anyway i just walked out of work to get away from what i saw as imminent danger. when i got home my mother asked me why i was home. i tried to make up some bs story which she didnt believe. after a little while i laid out what was really going on. she then organised for me to see a psychologist at a local mental health centre. she organised for me to take time off work. and here the road to recovery began.
i was seeing a pshyc twice a week for over 1 year i was on anti pshycotic medication for 1 year. it took about 3 months of use before i stopped seeing and hearing things. i stopped talking and seeing almost everyone i knew at the time as to not be involved in any tempting situation and fortunately i had an understanding boss who left the door open for me and i was able to return to work after 3 months (not the night shift).
i was never involved in serious crime. i got myself into alot of debt paying for my habit but i knew a very large dealer and mostly did favours for him to get my drugs. deliver drugs here and there and so on so low level crime but no theft or assault or anything serious was involved for me.
i racked up over $30000 of debt, lost friends destroyed my teeth but at the end of the day i was very lucky to have the support of my mother and an understanding boss woh left the door open for me after my rehab. which is why i believe we should always help people. without this support who knows what would have happened.
i strongly believe that the rehab and medical care available works. it worked for me. when you talk about intervention the hardest thing is getting someone to realise they have a problem. then convincing them you can help and they are worth helping. i know people who had forced intervention and at first they do not respond well but after a little while being under care and drug free they realise that they do have a poblem and will always accept the help.
there are 3 main reasons why people dont want help.
1. they dont believe they have a problem
2. they dont think anyone can help
3. they dont think they are worth helping.
it can be hard to convince people of these three things but they are the key.

if i had forced intervention before i relised i had a problem i would not have responded well at first because i wouldnt have relaised i had a problem but that is the drugs. once the drugs are gone from the system then the help can start.

[maat1985]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Hi maat1985, thanks for sharing your experiences, can you tell us anything about this 'ice rage' that we hear about, what types of things trigger it, is there ay way to switch it off.
Did you have any episodes when you thought you would harm someone.

as far as "ice rage" goes it is a real thing. i personally never caused harm to the extent that some people have. i got very very angry and very very aggressive extremely easily and for no reason. the triggers are as simple as anything that would normally annoy you a little bit. it just multiplies and exaggerates that. there is no way to switch it off. only being removed from the situation will do that.
it is funny but as when you are with a group of people who are all on ice (your trusted mates) they dont always see the situation the same as you do. so when you get aggressive and start a fight they would often be the ones to calm you down cus they dont see what is making you angry. and them being on drugs also they can tell you that you are just tripping out and skitzing out and you will believe them because they know and you trust them where as if it was someone else you get more angry because you dont know or trust them.
it is very real. as much as i did not suffer from it too much i saw it alot.
i suffered mostly from psychosis (seeing and hearing things). ie driving down the road and seeing people jump out infront of me so then i would swerve but then nobody was there. being swarmed by thousands of imaginary bees. people "shadows" hiding and lurking behind everything watching and judging everything i do. i was much more paranoid then aggressive myself.
most of my agressive episodes were only verbal. yes i would be set off by the simplest of things.
but as i said not everybody is affected the same ways.

[bathurst-racer]

There are many reasons as to what draws someone to drugs. If you put the negative side of things aside and look at what it does it is easy to see why. It gives you boundless enrgy amd strength allows you to do what you would never be able to in an amount of time that you could not believe. It makes you incredibley focused. Super quick. Insanely strong heck there is no better feeling...

maat your story does lead people to understand what happens to the drug user who hasn't sustained permanent impairment and you are very open in describing your experience. The above quote explains why people like Lance Armstrong abuse drugs and also explains why they are regarded with contempt by everyone else.

There has been some comments about the need for treatment and rehabilitation for addicts. Indeed some but not all may benefit from resources being put into programs and medication. My question is how many addicts can provide the large amount of money to pay for their treatment ? Please don't suggest that the taxpayer should wear the cost and then the reformed addict will become a useful member of society and pay taxes and settle the debt. Most people who have a job, family, mortgage and existing tax burdens are already paying around 25% or more of their income to the government for the purpose of running the country. How much of that money is already going to the parasites who won't contribute to society? Is an addict likely to cost the government $100K in treatment and rehab expenses. I'd say that is a conservative estimate given one on one psych counselling, medication and welfare payments during the process. On top of their PAYE tax commitments as a contributing member of the general public I can't see their debt being repaid anytime soon. So once again it is the hard working family who will be asked to pick up the junkie and support them. I'll repeat what I have said before, I do deal with the most damaged and those who have been addicts for many years and there is no treatment which will put them back on their feet.
So why do some people beat the rehab drum ? Is it because they can see where they're heading and want to convince themselves that there is a way back ? Is it because they are compassionate and have hope for addicts ? Is it because they are Magistrates and are desperate for sentencing options?
Is it because they are politicians and need to be seen to be doing something ?
I am genuinely sorry for those who cling to hope for some of the addicts. The truth is known to frontline police, the prison staff and workers in our emergency departments. Those addicts who have sustained serious mental impairment and physical deterioration through drug abuse, particularly ICE are beyond rehabilitation.
I thank you maat for your insight into your experience. When you have worked beside me and actually seen where your journey may have taken you I may agree you know what you're talking about.

There is a new drug called gravel which is heading towards Australia. That will change the way we live as its far more destructive to our society than ICE could ever be....

Also addicts aren't locked up as punishment. They are put in gaol to protect normal people from the thieving and violent behaviour of those who take illicit drugs.

[maat1985]

who makes the decision?
who makes the call?
who decides if someone can be helped?
is help made available for those who can be helped?

also to what needs to be understood it that ICE affects many people in many different ways and not everybody becomes an out of control maniac.
It is somewhat dependent on the type of person that you were before hand and also somewhat dependent on the people you hang with while using.
from my experience everybody who i was with and around were varied people.
There were some lowlife derro houso style junkies who stole anything from anyone and started fightts everywhere but they were looked down upon by other users aswell because the drug does not make a person like that the drug just makes it worse and even harder to climb up from. these are the type of people that are already messed up in the head. and need alot of help beyond getting clean.
Most of the users i was with nobody would know that they were users from the outside hold down a good paying job, have a family, life looked great.
people who use it to just be able to do more than what they could otherwise.

and bathurst-racer i cannot say that you do not have any valid points and any valid opinion but what i can say with 100% certainty is that being in the position that you are seeing what you see has tainted your overall view. understandably. you see the extreme end of bad of what people have become.
two things need to be remembered.
1. most of the people who are that bad were probably in a life of crime before or hung around people who lead them down that road
2. you a seeing a small percentage of the addicts. not all are that bad.

i am sorry that you see what you see day to day.

Also addicts aren't locked up as punishment. They are put in gaol to protect normal people from the thieving and violent behaviour of those who take illicit drugs.

100% correct.

There is a new drug called gravel which is heading towards Australia. That will change the way we live as its far more destructive to our society than ICE could ever be....

havnt particularly heard of this myself but one thing i do know is that there will always be something else. in the 80's and 90's it was heroine. it is very unfortunate and something that we can probably never stop and probably never control which is why something needs to be worked out as the way to deal with this problem and prepare for the next.

[maat1985]

just thinking and what just came to mind is that when people are high on ice is not when all the problems happen.
when someone is high on ice you mind is clear and clean. you are very focused and you will operate extremely quickly with accuracy and precision.
it is when the drugs half life begins to kick in and you start to come down. that is where the problems start. when the drug in your body begins to deteriorate it creates a chemical imbalance and a craving for more. this is where all the aggression comes from. this is why people steal if they dont have money for the next hit they will steal because they cant control it.
i personally had such a heavy drug use that i hardly suffered from this. i was pretty much constantly high for a week at a time. and when i came down it was planned that i was home alone where i wouldnt get angry at people cus no one was there. the worst i did was 6 days with no sleep and then slept for over 20 hours to recover.

[bathurst-racer]

maat
Thank you for immediately asking my unspoken questions.
Yes, who will decide who gets the treatment and how will that decision be made ? To provide or withhold treatment ?

These issues are the elephant in the room when the drug problem is informally discussed in high places. The talks will always be informal because there is no politically viable solution which sits well with our left wing governments.
OOPS I'll stop that train of thought right here.

Also maat I respect that you've considered what I think and have taken it on board. Would you also accept that I have not been tainted by my experience but have seen it happen, worked with many different professions and formed an opinion based on that ?
I have been through a phase of dealing with the riff raff and not having the resources to separate the bad from the evil but I like to think I've learnt a bit more and can see the individual clearly and not the group as a whole.

[maat1985]

I could accept that your views have not been tainted and that can easily been shown by having an understanding that yes it is a bad problem, yes there are some seriously screwed up people because of but also that there are some good people who have made mistakes and deserve some help and support and a second chance am opportunity to make good.
Another thing to consider is someone who us into petty crime ie minor theft is more than likely a good person who has made mistakes.
Someone who is assaulting people left right and centre, murding people and causing a menace to society would probably be in the same situation without ice. The ice just makes it more extreme and more violent and harder to control.
This is not always the case but is certainly evident inalot of situations.
Basically what i am saying is i believe that ice can make a good person do wrong things.
But ice does not make a person an evil monster it just unleashes and amplifies the evil already there.
But as i said not always the case.

Also i apologise for the typos in my posts that is what happens when typimg quickly on my phone...

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by b0son

I think one of the major reasons people have a short fuse where drugs are concerned is because time and again, they're used by the courts as mitigating factors where sentencing is concerned, and frankly, they shouldn't. We know enough about the effects drugs/alcohol/etc have on behaviour to know there's a risk we'll do something bad. Why should we then be surprised when we do and try to hide behind the drug? We took it with our eyes open, we should be prepared to accept the consequences of our actions.

WRT to my comments above re: jail, I'm not saying people who take drugs need to be locked up simply over possession. But if they commit a crime as a result of their drug use, be it to support the habit, or because they lose control of themselves as a result of it, they absolutely should be held accountable as if there was no drug, as if they made a conscious decision to commit the act.

I'm in absolute agreement here.
Commit a crime and you should be locked up like everyone else.

Addicts need access to medical/mental health support not gaols.

[glide77]

Originally Posted by MrEL

Easy way to fix the addicts issues.
Small piece of lead inserted inbetween the eyes at high velocity.
Problem fixed.

not everything is black and white. Long story short, my daughter was raped when she was younger, after finally convincing her to go to counseling she lost the plot after a couple of sessions. She was on ice for about 8mnths and all we could do was support her and tell her how much her family loved her, thankfully she was able to turn herself around (so far so good). There are many reasons why people use, making a decision to use in that frame of mind is hardly something worthy of being shot for.

[Carrion]

New police tactic to catch ice dealers.



Will have them lining up at the door.

[TEZG]

Originally Posted by b0son

I think one of the major reasons people have a short fuse where drugs are concerned is because time and again, they're used by the courts as mitigating factors where sentencing is concerned, and frankly, they shouldn't. We know enough about the effects drugs/alcohol/etc have on behaviour to know there's a risk we'll do something bad. Why should we then be surprised when we do and try to hide behind the drug? We took it with our eyes open, we should be prepared to accept the consequences of our actions.

WRT to my comments above re: jail, I'm not saying people who take drugs need to be locked up simply over possession. But if they commit a crime as a result of their drug use, be it to support the habit, or because they lose control of themselves as a result of it, they absolutely should be held accountable as if there was no drug, as if they made a conscious decision to commit the act.

I guess it's not common knowledge but nowadays long term drug abusers who continue to commit crimes and return to jail time and time again are sentenced to longer periods in custody because the courts rule that they know by now what will happen when they use and so therefore hold them 100% responsible.

Younger people who front courts for the first or second time are sometimes given opportunities to rehabilitate themselves depending on what they have been convicted of.

Very interesting to read the differences in what people think should happen to ice users who commit crimes, there's lots to consider that's for sure, I just hope none of my kids end up on it.

I know of someone who used to get on their high horse about what should happen to junkies etc, their attitude changed when their child ended up in jail for a very long time for a very serious crime.

I've worked with those in custody due to their alcohol and other drug use for many years, I've learnt a lot doing so, I'm glad I was born where I was, once knowing their stories it was obvious many were never going to end up anywhere else, the way many of them view the world is very different to the average Joe, I consider myself lucky, we can't choose where we are born.

I've had my house broken into, hated that, went to work and looked at my clients with a lot of anger, that was for me to work through though and I did in a few days.

Addictions are nasty things.

[maat1985]

Well said terryzg.
Your experiances also show what i touched on with how some of it has to do with the people themselves aswell. Certain people view the world differently and this would not be any different if they did or did not have an addiction.. and addiction is an outlet for them just as the crime is. Take away the addiction and they would still commit crimes...

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Terry ZG

I guess it's not common knowledge but nowadays long term drug abusers who continue to commit crimes and return to jail time and time again are sentenced to longer periods in custody because the courts rule that they know by now what will happen when they use and so therefore hold them 100% responsible.

Younger people who front courts for the first or second time are sometimes given opportunities to rehabilitate themselves depending on what they have been convicted of.

Very interesting to read the differences in what people think should happen to ice users who commit crimes, there's lots to consider that's for sure, I just hope none of my kids end up on it.

I know of someone who used to get on their high horse about what should happen to junkies etc, their attitude changed when their child ended up in jail for a very long time for a very serious crime.

I've worked with those in custody due to their alcohol and other drug use for many years, I've learnt a lot doing so, I'm glad I was born where I was, once knowing their stories it was obvious many were never going to end up anywhere else, the way many of them view the world is very different to the average Joe, I consider myself lucky, we can't choose where we are born.

I've had my house broken into, hated that, went to work and looked at my clients with a lot of anger, that was for me to work through though and I did in a few days.

Addictions are nasty things.

We can't choose where we are born ? what's that got to do with it, my dad and mum were the ones that I got moral values from.

Very wealthy family's can be total trash people with no values worth jack, I have seen it many a time.

Addictions are to do with weakness of the mind, such have no power control over themselves, because they have not learned that discipline.

In Ju Jitsu you can learn reality, it uncovers powers that are dormant and it aims to draw out the components of creativity potential and deals with internal conflict is a part of it as well.

The schooling system and the media have only worked to create a weak spineless nation of wimps and mindless gutless ratbags worthy of nothing but want.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by castellan

We can't choose where we are born ? what's that got to do with it, my dad and mum were the ones that I got moral values from.

Wow, not sure where to start.
Do you get out much?


I truly hope nothing ever goes wrong in your life.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Wow, not sure where to start.

I see where he's coming from though. Plenty of people with terrible upbringings still seem to understand the difference between right and wrong. Perhaps the upbringing simply influences what sort of conscience they have... ?

That said, there's still a lot to be said for making people responsible for the choices they make. I heard a quote from a motivational speaker recently who does work with underprivileged kids in bad neighbourhoods in the US ... something along the lines of 'I see you sittin still when you watch a movie. I see you sittin still when you texting your friends. dont tell me you can't sit still in class!'