First experience .. Vic law regarding passing emergency vehicle

[Ben73]

I don’t know what South Australian motorways look like, but Sydney has twice the population than the entire state of SA. Plus you have all the traffic just passing through Sydney. If you leave and 80m gap 16 cars will try to get into that gap. The only way to keep a permanent 80m gap would be to drive at about 30kmh slower than everyone else. That way as people pass you they will move into your lane and that gap will not take too long to increase to 80m.

Leave a 10m gap on a busy motorway and I will take less than a minute before 2 cars attempt to get in the gap.
Not saying it’s safe t drive this close. But it happens all day every day. It usually works out ok since motorways are designed to keep traffic moving at speed with almost zero hazards or delays.
That’s why there’s no intersections, no traffic lights, no pedestrians, no parking, pretty much nothing but driving at a reasonable speed.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by prydey

Do you read that back to yourself and understand just how absurd it sounds? Its 2-3 seconds. How is that going to make a difference in your arrival time? you can still travel at the same speed. Its just a miniscule amount of time that 'could' save you. Why people feel the need to be right up the back of the car in front, when you can't actually go anywhere else, is beyond me.

60kmh, 2 seconds is probably fine. 100kmh 3 seconds is better.




A scenario. you are sitting behind a truck with limited forward visibility. They are not paying attention and come upon a line of traffic that is stopped due to an incident ahead. Truck swerves in to next lane and suddenly you are staring at the back of a parked car. Yes, it happens.

People tend to ignore these kinds of things due to how rarely they happen, but they can and do happen. Those that drive expecting the unexpected will have less accidents.

With cars in both lanes it would be completely pointless trying to maintain it. Always people dipping in and out. Not even worth the aggravation. I just go with the traffic flow and what I see up ahead, not some arbitrary set time/distance.

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by lra

"[I]

I am an occasional user of the M7, (the whole length,) and to be truthful, it scares the s*** out of me.
It is not wide enough for the traffic volume, the variable speed is confusing, ( 100, 80, 60, then 40, because there is a crash ahead, then back to 100, and where was the crash ?), the emergency lane is a bad joke, .

I agree with all of This ^^^
In my opinion one of (if not THE) Biggest cause of this type of Accident is: the Breakdown/Emergency lane is Too NARROW. if they were 500-900mm Wider, there'd be far less of these types of incidents..

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I just go with the traffic flow and what I see up ahead, not some arbitrary set time/distance.

That...is absolutely the correct way to drive.

Having said that nobody, nobody except people obsessed with their bizarre, stringent self imposed version of safety deviate from "fitting in" to the human beings around them.

At least they are easy to spot and are usually well back in our rear view mirrors (due to catching every set of lights by not triggering the road sensor).
Funny how to some ,everyone in the world is a terrible driver except those going slow and making an 80m gap to the car in front.

I guess we all have driving abilities that are challenging for some.

Originally Posted by prydey

A scenario. you are sitting behind a truck with limited forward visibility. They are not paying attention and come upon a line of traffic that is stopped due to an incident ahead. Truck swerves in to next lane and suddenly you are staring at the back of a parked car. Yes, it happens.

.

We call that "Discover checkmate", covered in any advanced driving course....(or a game of Chess)

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Ben73

The only way to keep a permanent 80m gap would be to drive at about 30kmh slower than everyone else. That way as people pass you they will move into your lane and that gap will not take too long to increase to 80m.

.

yep...and that is the problem with not going with the flow.
The exact reason that it is actually dangerous to other road users.

[prydey]

Hard to have a discussion when English comprehension is poor...

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by zilo

Tassief100.....

I have been to court, in Victoria, and have witnessed first hand the judgement by a magistrate that 3 car lengths not being observed is "following too closely"on the eastern freeway in Melbourne.
It is discretionary by the magistrate....but I never heard him suggest a minimum of 12 car lengths....(or 20 car lengths as Prydey drives...)

1 demerit point.

That is the basis of fact that I rely on....not urban myths .

https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/lice...merit-offences

.

Below quote & link from Vicroads website.
https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safe...e-driving-tips




Following distance

Judging distance and speed can deteriorate with age and older people may take longer to react. So always keep a safe distance from the car in front.
Under normal conditions, on most roads and highways, you should try to have a two second gap between your car and the car in front where possible.
The way to work this out is to pick a solid object beside the road, and count two second from the time the car in front passes it. If you’ve reached the object within two seconds you’re too close.
The two second gap should be extended to four seconds in the following situations:

• at night or in poor light
• bad weather conditions such as rain or fog
• when you are tired
• when your vehicle is heavy and can’t stop as quickly
• when you are towing
• when you are unsure of the road.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

With cars in both lanes it would be completely pointless trying to maintain it. Always people dipping in and out. Not even worth the aggravation. I just go with the traffic flow and what I see up ahead, not some arbitrary set time/distance.

Only matter of time before people like you who will get caught out rear ending some other motorist, this happens all the time.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

You need to get out more. There are numerous places in NSW that go from 110kmh to 60kmh with only a sign appx 100 metres out saying 60kmh ahead.

I thought about mentioning that 100km/h to 60km/h zones are commonplace in country Vic, but I could imagine the sort of response mentioning the 'V' word would illicit. So I though twice about it.

I don't recall any accidents being mentioned when they introduced that system either.

Originally Posted by zilo

Maybe if you quoted the recommended value of 3 car lengths minimum instead of 3 seconds...

Originally Posted by Officemanager

Below quote & link from Vicroads website.
https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safe...e-driving-tips




Following distance

Judging distance and speed can deteriorate with age and older people may take longer to react. So always keep a safe distance from the car in front.
Under normal conditions, on most roads and highways, you should try to have a two second gap between your car and the car in front where possible.
The way to work this out is to pick a solid object beside the road, and count two second from the time the car in front passes it. If you’ve reached the object within two seconds you’re too close.
The two second gap should be extended to four seconds in the following situations:

• at night or in poor light
• bad weather conditions such as rain or fog
• when you are tired
• when your vehicle is heavy and can’t stop as quickly
• when you are towing
• when you are unsure of the road.

And it's not just Vicroads that recommend a 3 to 4 second gap. A quick google search shows this document from the NSW RTA. Item 8 refers to:

Drivers must keep sufficient distance behind a vehicle
travelling in front of them to safely avoid a collision.
Safe following distances may vary depending on
the conditions, the type of vehicle and the speed
at which the vehicle is travelling. As a general rule,
when following a vehicle, the driver should travel
three seconds behind the vehicle in front to provide
sufficient time to avoid a crash.

As you can see from the language in that section (ie 'should', 'vary', 'general rule') it is not law, but it certainly recommended in multiple state authority literature. I also recall being taught the 3 second gap when I was learning to drive back in the late 80s, early 90s.


This NSW RTA page even specifies the distance for you at certain speeds:

The three second gap will change depending on you speed.
The following table shows the crash avoidance space needed for these speeds

Speed Crash avoidance space in metres
60 Kilometres per hour 50 metres
80 Kilometres per hour 67 metres
100 Kilometres per hour 84 metres
Potential for something to move into the crash avoidance space
The three-second gap can also be used for situations where there is potential for something to move into your crash avoidance space; for example a car in an adjacent street could fail to give way and pull out in front of you.

Safe low risk drivers experienced in maintaining a three-second following distance are able to mentally judge a three-second crash avoidance space in front of their vehicle. If there is potential for a hazard to enter this crash avoidance space, reduce your speed to create a buffer. It is necessary to maintain the crash avoidance space for all potentially hazardous situations, including blind corners and crests.

Many of the crashes that occur each day in NSW could be avoided if drivers actively maintained their crash avoidance space.

For interest, on the Prices Highway between Stratford and Bairnsdale in east Gippsland, they have several sections where the requirement for a 3 second gap is sign-posted, along with markings on the road to assist drivers to determine the gap between them and the vehicle in front:

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by prydey

You are missing the point. I'm not talking about any specific incident. When you see flashing lights normally, if you are a competent driver paying attention, you will be too far away to see the reason for them. It could well be an emergency.

You sound like the person who walks across a zebra pedestrian crossing without looking left or right because you think just because you have right of way cars will stop and give way to you.

I am the type of person who looks both right and left when crossing a zebra pedestrian crossing because even though I know I have right of way, I don't assume all drivers are paying attention. There is no point saying I was in the right if a wayward motorist hits and injures or kills you as the point has become moot.

We all deserve to work in safe environments. But we should not put ourselves in unnecessary danger.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

You sound like the person who walks across a zebra pedestrian crossing without looking left or right because you think just because you have right of way cars will stop and give way to you.

I am the type of person who looks both right and left when crossing a zebra pedestrian crossing because even though I know I have right of way, I don't assume all drivers are paying attention. There is no point saying I was in the right if a wayward motorist hits and injures or kills you as the point has become moot.

We all deserve to work in safe environments. But we should not put ourselves in unnecessary danger.

I'll refer you back to post #576

[zilo]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

And it's not just Vicroads that recommend a 3 to 4 second gap.

Hmmm.."Officemanager's" link disagrees about 3-4 seconds.

Funny...Prydey likes that post.....

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

Judging distance and speed can deteriorate with age and older people may take longer to react. So always keep a safe distance from the car in front.
Under normal conditions, on most roads and highways, you should try to have a two second gap between your car and the car in front where possible.

yep...excellent advice for elderly folk driving in the wet at night with drum brakes on the XP falcon.

But those of us with modern cars and youth don't need that advice.

I won't pull apart any more of your references but big difference between 2 and four seconds.
Two seconds is quite reasonable in fact, but as others have said, conditions determine the gap and simply using a set time is bad advice.

I am sure we could all find a link to a recommended 10 seconds as being safe....we could probably find one that says that going under 30 km/h is safer than any posted speed limit.

But who wants to sit behind Prydey all the way to Adelaide?


.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

For interest, on the Prices Highway between Stratford and Bairnsdale in east Gippsland, they have several sections where the requirement for a 3 second gap is sign-posted, along with markings on the road to assist drivers to determine the gap between them and the vehicle in front:

image

I have searched the Vic Roads documents for the road signs you have posted and can conclude that:-

They are not regulatory signs, therefore there is no requirement.

They are also not not advisory signs, they are not in compliant colours.

Therefore they are informative signs akin to those one would use to check his speedometer....or notice of a wayside stop or hotel.

To suggest that they form an enforceable notice is inaccurate.

happy to be proven otherwise......


https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safe...les/road-signs






https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safe...les/road-signs

[Trendseeker]

Originally Posted by prydey

Hard to have a discussion when English comprehension is poor...

Yes, a waste of time trying to discuss anything with him. Not just comprehension either. Logic, interpretation of information and general worldview, all lacking, but amusing at the same time. You could be forgiven for thinking he lives in a silo.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Trendseeker

Not just comprehension. Logic, interpretation of information and general worldview, all lacking, but amusing at the same time. You could be forgiven for thinking he lives in a silo.

You sir...are off topic,
but then you rarely have anything intelligent to add....

please ....go back to word association instead of trolling

( it's less than four syllables....)

[Trendseeker]

Originally Posted by zilo

You sir...are off topic,
but then you rarely have anything intelligent to add....

please ....go back to word association instead of trolling

( it's less than four syllables....)

Why do you think I was referring to you?

Four syllables or four full stops in a row?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Ben73

I don’t know what South Australian motorways look like, but Sydney has twice the population than the entire state of SA. Plus you have all the traffic just passing through Sydney. If you leave and 80m gap 16 cars will try to get into that gap. The only way to keep a permanent 80m gap would be to drive at about 30kmh slower than everyone else. That way as people pass you they will move into your lane and that gap will not take too long to increase to 80m.

Leave a 10m gap on a busy motorway and I will take less than a minute before 2 cars attempt to get in the gap.
Not saying it’s safe t drive this close. But it happens all day every day. It usually works out ok since motorways are designed to keep traffic moving at speed with almost zero hazards or delays.
That’s why there’s no intersections, no traffic lights, no pedestrians, no parking, pretty much nothing but driving at a reasonable speed.

Keep in mind Adelaide only has minimal freeways - South Eastern Freeway heading out of the joint and the new Northern Connector (that South Road superway thing is like 5km if that long).

They don't have the road network of freeways that Melbourne and Sydney have, everything is traffic light to traffic light on highways and the volume of traffic is very low in comparison.

It's probably difficult to comprehend the traffic issues both Melbourne and Sydney have and how aggressive people tend to drive.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Keep in mind Adelaide only has minimal freeways - South Eastern Freeway heading out of the joint and the new Northern Connector (that South Road superway thing is like 5km if that long).

They don't have the road network of freeways that Melbourne and Sydney have, everything is traffic light to traffic light on highways and the volume of traffic is very low in comparison.

It's probably difficult to comprehend the traffic issues both Melbourne and Sydney have and how aggressive people tend to drive.

It's irrelevant to the discussion where I live or drive however for the record, I've driven in every city except Darwin and Canberra. Peak hours too.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by zilo

Two seconds is quite reasonable in fact,
.

Originally Posted by zilo

Maybe if you quoted the recommended value of 3 car lengths minimum instead of 3 seconds...

You can't even make up your mind. It's obvious you are just here to be contrary.

You do realise using time means the gap varies depending on speed, don't you?

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

You sound like the person who walks across a zebra pedestrian crossing without looking left or right because you think just because you have right of way cars will stop and give way to you.

I am the type of person who looks both right and left when crossing a zebra pedestrian crossing because even though I know I have right of way, I don't assume all drivers are paying attention. There is no point saying I was in the right if a wayward motorist hits and injures or kills you as the point has become moot.

We all deserve to work in safe environments. But we should not put ourselves in unnecessary danger.

Bingo. Just because the 'rules' say one should comply doesn't infer one will comply.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by prydey

It's irrelevant to the discussion where I live or drive however for the record, I've driven in every city except Darwin and Canberra. Peak hours too.

I think it is.
I reckon you might understand better if you have ever driven (for an example) down the M1 from Gosford in morning peak on a daily basis to see how quickly things can go wrong decelerating from 110 to 40.

I'm all for safety in well marked roadworks, accident sites where police have already slowed the traffic down from a distance but unnecessary driver stops on the side of a freeway is just asking for trouble.
As others have stated already what's wrong with electronically fining drivers.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I think it is.
I reckon you might understand better if you have ever driven (for an example) down the M1 from Gosford in morning peak on a daily basis to see how quickly things can go wrong decelerating from 110 to 40.

Physics doesn't care where you live or drive. This isn't some personal attack or discussion, although some are trying hard to make it that way. Its about driver behaviour and attitude. Travelling at a safe distance isn't difficult and doesn't 'cost' time as some make out. In fact, anyone with a small knowledge of maths should be able to work out that it adds very little time to a journey and could save your life.

Unfortunately, the perception in a lot of people's heads is that if they are travelling even a few kmh slower, or stopped at traffic lights, its costing them some huge amount of time. It's why so many charge through red lights etc. Its just a lack of education and selfish. The fact is, it costs virtually no time at all.

Some here are arguing over leaving a couple of seconds of gap. a couple of seconds. like literally, seconds. how is that making a difference in anyone's life. I'm not talking about travelling slower by a substantial margin. Its the same principle as adaptive cruise. If someone fills the gap you leave, you don't have to brake, just lift off fractionally. You are still travelling in a forward direction at almost the same speed as those around you. Its all in your head that you think its slower to reach your destination.

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I'm all for safety in well marked roadworks, accident sites where police have already slowed the traffic down from a distance but unnecessary driver stops on the side of a freeway is just asking for trouble.

So, on approach to one of these situations, how do you know that's what it is? serious question. You see flashing lights and you can work out whether its just a traffic stop or an accident requiring caution when passing? Or are you suggesting that before the paramedics get involved they should wait until the police arrive and then implement traffic calming measures and then they can go to work. Sure, no worries.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Officemanager

Only matter of time before people like you who will get caught out rear ending some other motorist, this happens all the time.

No because i'm not some moron sitting 6 ft behind someone. I'm choosing a comfortable gap, and scanning the road ahead. Not some nanny sitting 100 metres behind anyone else doing 30 under the speed limit, and then calling the people driving past me doing the speed limit idiots, and telling myself how safe I am, going so much slower than everybody else.

But go ahead and make assumptions on my driving ability. Based on nothing

Had my licence for 21 years and have never been in an accident by the way.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by prydey

So, on approach to one of these situations, how do you know that's what it is? serious question. You see flashing lights and you can work out whether its just a traffic stop or an accident requiring caution when passing? Or are you suggesting that before the paramedics get involved they should wait until the police arrive and then implement traffic calming measures and then they can go to work. Sure, no worries.

Well I can not speak for others but I can clearly see the difference between an ambulance, a fire engine, police car or Vicroads (purple lights) on the side of the hwy.
At a larger accident site there will always be lots of them anyway.

Out on a country freeway It was always best practice to pass a stop police car, car, bus, truck, car n caravan, person or cyclist by changing lanes.

In my view a traffic infringement stop isn't an emergency.
Its the reason now on the Hume you will rarely see a cop stopped with lights flashing, booking someone. I have seen several pursuits where they have directed the car onto a side road out of harms way.

Just a sidenote to this.
have watched some great youtube clips of how the German police slow traffic down on an Autobahn by their zigzag rolling slowdowns similar to CHiPs do in Commiefornia.

[Tassie f100]

Well my attitude is,If I see some party lights flashing ahead I automatically presume there is some sort of incident ahead.If I can see a fair way in front I prepare to take whatever action is required.I there isn’t long range visibility I would check the mirrors then just tap the brake a couple of times to warn those behind.Must sort of work because in over 50 years of driving I have neither been run into nor have I run into the back of anyone.In fact I haven’t had a crash yet apart from a couple of errant wallabies jumping in front of me at night

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

No because i'm not some moron sitting 6 ft behind someone. I'm choosing a comfortable gap, and scanning the road ahead. Not some nanny sitting 100 metres behind anyone else doing 30 under the speed limit, and then calling the people driving past me doing the speed limit idiots, and telling myself how safe I am, going so much slower than everybody else.

you say this... and i know you didn't mention names but the inference is there..

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

But go ahead and make assumptions on my driving ability. Based on nothing

and then you say this...

irony defined.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Well I can not speak for others but I can clearly see the difference between an ambulance, a fire engine, police car or Vicroads (purple lights) on the side of the hwy.

from what distance?

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by prydey

from what distance?

Depends on parts of the freeway some area's around Wang, Wodonga Albury have great sight distances, 5km to 10kms, other area's around Euroa, Violet Town have tighter bends and up and down grades where it is difficult to see far enough ahead, 50mtrs maybe.
Add in the heavy fog atm on most days. (no excuse)
For instance, the Hume south of Gundagai has some big ups and downs and you will never know what lies just over the crests until you arrive there but then that's what I use a CB radio for in all the fleet.
Speaking from quite a few years experience as a Sydney courier driver I trained myself to look far into the distance so I can read a traffic situation unfolding even down to once having a police car run into the back of me at high speed, I knew it was going to happen but saving the life of a little girl was more important.

[GT450]

Prydey I don't always agree with you but in this instance I believe you are correct, You drive to stay alive and keep your property and occupants safe and you're not trying to text or read texts whilst doing so and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The old saying "don't argue with idiots as they will beat you with experience and drag you down to their level" certainly prevails here. I see them every day in the Melbourne traffic for 2 and a half hours and it's a victory just to get home unscathed.
If we both keep trying we will see old age something our younger counterparts may not.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by prydey

you say this... and i know you didn't mention names but the inference is there..




and then you say this...

irony defined.

Oh you think I was referring to you

Get over yourself mate.