Driver Training

[Panda]

I've done a couple of Defensive Driving Courses, both on the track and on a skid pan. (in cars and a medium/rigid truck :eclipsee_ )

Track - good practice for high speed cornering, trail braking, drifting, emergency braking, obstacle avoidance etc. Not all of those skills were the aim of the courses, but that is what I took away from them. Use them all the time on the road.

Skid Pan - great fun, and you learn how to recover an out of control vehicle, and when the time comes, those skills kick in without you thinking about it. (i.e. - wet road one day, rear stepped out while going around a corner, recovered, missus said 'how did you do that', 'dunno, just did')

The downside of this knowledge is that you can either use it to drive safer or you can use it to drive faster.........I choose faster.

Panda

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Panda

....The downside of this knowledge is that you can either use it to drive safer or you can use it to drive faster.........I choose faster.

Panda

And that is exactly why Insurance Companies hate them type of courses.

[MITCHAY]

Apparently your insurance premium goes up if you do one of these courses. Some unsuspecting people tell their company expecting a discount only to pay more.

I havent done one but would love to do one. Nothing more fun then losing control in a safe place and being taught how to avoid it or correct it. I think the people that are stupid would actually use it to delibrately do stupid shit on the roads cause they learn how to get out of it.

For me, ive never lost control so dont really know what its like (Thanks automakers for ABS brakes) More often than not if your not stupid in the first place then you dont have to worry bout losing control.

[Biggoggs]

What sort of stuff do you learn? In other words, is it something that can be learnt `on the street'?

[bscampbell]

I did the AAMI course 10 years ago, and this year did the Jim Murcott level 1 defensive driving course (for free!).
I found it to be very useful as a reminder...this is a long post, but please read on...who knows, it might just help you!
:
How many of you look up into the distance when driving, eg. into the second corner, or beyond the car in front of you? It increases peripheral vision!
What about keeping that 2-3 second buffer zone? Yes, you get those idiots who jump into it, but they are most likely going to pull away, or you could just slow down a couple of k's.
Do you pull right up to the stop line at traffic lights? How about pulling up so you can still see the line because it gives you room to move if you have someone closing in on the back of you!
What about tailgaters, do you tap the brakes to warn them? What if you just slow down a bit more to let them pass when safe to do so!
Do you actually know how much difference driving 5km/h slower makes to stopping distance? I use to have my speed alert set on 65, now it's 60!
How many road rule changes were there last year? Would you believe 100+!
What about racing somewhere (driving eratically and fast) to arrive on time...aren't you better off arriving late than never, or worse still injuring/killing someone else! Travelling a few k's over the speed limit doesn't get you there much quicker, but uses considerably more fuel, and you arrive feeling frustrated/rushed/etc, and probably arguing with passengers!

It taught me to take my time, and no, not drive at 'granny pace', but sensibly for the conditions, and I feel I am a much more relaxed and better 'visioned' driver now. I was never a 'road-rage' type driver anyway, but occassionally I did, as would many of you, get frustrated with other drivers!
Drivers need to learn patience and how to AVOID accidents, not how to get out of them!
That's the lesson I learnt from this, the practical part just showed how much difference 5km/h makes, because when you are involved in an accident, one day of training isn't going to help you out of a split-second event!

[Teki04]

Originally Posted by bscampbell

Drivers need to learn patience and how to AVOID accidents, not how to get out of them!
When you are involved in an accident, one day of training isn't going to help you out of a split-second event!

Avoid accidents... could also imply getting out of them yes?

And trust me, one day training will help in split-second events. Ive been around a corner at a reasonable pace in the wet (ie... slowly) only to go over a water/oil patch, and have my rear end swerve from under me. Thank god, from my training i managed to get out of it!

One important thing i learnt, was that in the event of an accident, look to where you want to go! And it definetly worked on the skid pan! That is the reason behind why cars ALWAYS smash into poles on the centre of the car... because that was the last thing that the Driver was looking at!

[bscampbell]

Originally Posted by Teki04

Avoid accidents... could also imply getting out of them yes?

No...if you are having to get out of one then you haven't avoided it!

And trust me, one day training will help in split-second events. Ive been around a corner at a reasonable pace in the wet (ie... slowly) only to go over a water/oil patch, and have my rear end swerve from under me. Thank god, from my training i managed to get out of it!

OK, OK...for some it may help, and I think I would draw on this learnt 'skill' if an accident is going to occur, but fortunately we don't get to practise this regularly, so it is better to stay out of situations that may result in an accident in the first place! In your case you were unlucky, even when driving at an appropriate speed for the weather conditions, your tyres lost grip and the result may have been worse had you not attended driver training. Again, thankfully an event like this is not practised daily!
The Murcott guys said themselves that you would forget these skills because you don't practise them every day, so it's more a matter of learning how to avoid accidents in the first place, which also involves changing driver attitude!

One important thing i learnt, was that in the event of an accident, look to where you want to go! And it definetly worked on the skid pan! That is the reason behind why cars ALWAYS smash into poles on the centre of the car... because that was the last thing that the Driver was looking at!

Spot on!

You can read their speil here:
http://www.murcott.com.au/2004/frame...t=Programs.asp
Also worth looking at the BAAMS driver profile on the left.

[Biggoggs]

And trust me, one day training will help in split-second events. Ive been around a corner at a reasonable pace in the wet (ie... slowly) only to go over a water/oil patch, and have my rear end swerve from under me. Thank god, from my training i managed to get out of it!

Sounds like a variation of the dirt drop drift

bscampbell: I ticked `yes' to most of the above, but I don't agree with the traffic lights thing. You should use your handbrake when at the lights to prevent going any further if you get hit from behind, or accidently `surging' on the pedal. If you have your foot on the accelerator (ie `room to move' as you put it) when you get hit, you're going to surge into crossing pedestrians and oncoming cars.

[bscampbell]

Originally Posted by Biggoggs

bscampbell: I ticked `yes' to most of the above, but I don't agree with the traffic lights thing. You should use your handbrake when at the lights to prevent going any further if you get hit from behind, or accidently `surging' on the pedal. If you have your foot on the accelerator (ie `room to move' as you put it) when you get hit, you're going to surge into crossing pedestrians and oncoming cars.

Sorry, that's not what I meant.
Pulling up a little further back from the stop line gives you some room to move forward (obviously if safe to do so) if it looks like someone's going to rear-end you (not that you are looking in the rear vision mirror all the time you sit there!). I just remembered something else too. It also increases the time it takes for you to enter an intersection (if you accelerate 'normally'), reducing the chance of that idiot running a red light from pile-driving you!
This happens more often than you would like to think...can't remember the stats on it though.

[Biggoggs]

Originally Posted by bscampbell

Pulling up a little further back from the stop line gives you some room to move forward (obviously if safe to do so) if it looks like someone's going to rear-end you (not that you are looking in the rear vision mirror all the time you sit there!). I just remembered something else too. It also increases the time it takes for you to enter an intersection (if you accelerate 'normally'), reducing the chance of that idiot running a red light from pile-driving you!
This happens more often than you would like to think...can't remember the stats on it though.

Yea I think I know what you mean, and my point still stands. For instance, if you see someone coming up behind you fast (ie rear collision imminent) and you tried to use that extra space, you have your foot on the accelerator, so if they do hit you when you're moving forward one or two meters, you're going to surge into traffic, big time. However, if you have your handbrake on, you're going to get hit, but you aren't going to come into traffic or hit the cars in front of you. As for taking longer to enter an intersection, it has the same effect as slightly pausing, or driving off slowly. Also by being close to the line, you can see past the SUV/raised Hilux to see what each side of traffic is doing.
I'm not trying to argue with you, just discuss tactics

[bscampbell]

Originally Posted by Biggoggs

Yea I think I know what you mean, and my point still stands. For instance, if you see someone coming up behind you fast (ie rear collision imminent) and you tried to use that extra space, you have your foot on the accelerator, so if they do hit you when you're moving forward one or two meters, you're going to surge into traffic, big time. However, if you have your handbrake on, you're going to get hit, but you aren't going to come into traffic or hit the cars in front of you. As for taking longer to enter an intersection, it has the same effect as slightly pausing, or driving off slowly. Also by being close to the line, you can see past the SUV/raised Hilux to see what each side of traffic is doing.
I'm not trying to argue with you, just discuss tactics

Great points...I guess it's a matter of making 'educated' adjustments for the traffic situation you are in.
I wonder how many people would use their hand brake at an intersection though? Bet there's not many, but it certainly makes sense to.
That's what these forums are all about...discussion!

[cogdoc]

Then there's the theory that the FASTER you get through an intersecton.....seriously though can't wait for my FPV John Bowe course. This new car has shown me I definately need a brush up, and I'm doing 60k a year!

[Heeno]

i spose im lucky i got a place day or night where i can practice, and it helps a hell of a lot( also keeps me from doing it on the street : )
it also made me a more sensible driver here's why...mind you i had my licence for 3 days...

one night i had 3 of my mates in the car driving around with nothing to do, so i decided id have some fun, i was goin close to 150km/h through local streets and ended up in a suburb i didn't know to well, as i was commin up to a set of lights i saw a car in the left hand lane so i stayed in the right hand lane (still doin 150) lights went green just in time, went through the lights, then it all went bad...corner 1 after lights took sideways but corrected for the next corner, speed drops to about 120km/h. 2nd corner was extremely sharp and put me into a fish tale, see line of cars to my left and an angled wall to my right (which one would you choose) i went the wall hoping to 'ride' it but as soon as i hit the car went 90 degrees to the wall and just slid all i could see was the night sky and the speedo reading 90km/h (sliding sidways???) then it was all over.
i checked to see if my mates were alright, they were fine just a bit shocked as to what just happend, we all had a look at the car and there was nothing wrong with it except for the front gard was scratched to the max.

i have done many hours and tyres on my practice area, and if it wern't for it, i think i would have killed myself and my 3 best mates that night, thank god i didn't... the practice i had befor i got my P's and years of driving gave me a big head and i think most ppl get this when they do a driving course, because of this incident it gave me a huge wake up call, just because i got all these skills doesn't mean i can hoon around the streets and think i can pull out of it... i was lucky very lucky that night.

use driver training courses for the right reason, not so you think you can pull yourself out of anything and hoon everywhere!

[Biggoggs]

lol Heeno you have to be careful what you say, you might get lynched by the forum anti-hoon brigade :P
It does sound like you were pushing it a bit though (`lights went green just in time' sounds like leaving things to luck), but it's nice to have a place to practise in. If I did something questionable it'd be with one passenger at the most, although I did once do something stupid with a car load of people (major ethics re-think the next day). Hopefully you learned from the experience eh

Hey do you use your own car at these courses?

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by Biggoggs

lol Heeno you have to be careful what you say, you might get lynched by the forum anti-hoon brigade :P
It does sound like you were pushing it a bit though (`lights went green just in time' sounds like leaving things to luck), but it's nice to have a place to practise in. If I did something questionable it'd be with one passenger at the most, although I did once do something stupid with a car load of people (major ethics re-think the next day). Hopefully you learned from the experience eh

Hey do you use your own car at these courses?

oh i learnt from that one alright, never again will i drive like that especially with the 3 best mates a guy could have, where i practice is private so that anything that could happen will not involve another person, pole, house or animal.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by Biggoggs

It does sound like you were pushing it a bit though (`lights went green just in time' sounds like leaving things to luck),

yea i was, i went way past my limits that night, and with only having my licence for 3 days all i wanted to do was show off....how silly i was

[deesun]

I just completed day 2 of Murcotts driving course,they are into safety, and NO hoon stuff during their courses like I've heard about from some so called advanced driving courses. Day 1 and 2 were both $245 p/person each 10% off for P platers and I got another 10% off for paying for both at booking. Day 1 is usually held at Quakers Hill in Sydney but they do Melbourne as well. This course should be MANDATORY for all P platers even with some of day 2 as well. Day 2 can't be taken if day 1 hasn't been completed. Day 2 was at Oran Park in Sydney, Sandown in Melbourne I think. Worth every cent IMHO. If you want a day of throwing your car round a skidpan type fun DON'T go, but if you want to learn something then it's great.

[bscampbell]

Did you find they concentrated more on changing driver attitude than actually pushing you to learn how to apply the driving skills they teach you?
I think that is a great way of teaching...better to drive in a safe and responsible manner than become involved in an accident!
Looking up (beyond first 10-20m of car) when driving, allowing suitable buffer zones, slowing down, etc., etc...I consciously do this whenever I drive because it's hard to break bad habits, and I often fall back into them if I don't think about it!
Just like deciding whether to 'risk' overtaking someone doing 95 in a 100 zone...you'll only beat them by less than 5 minutes over a 100km distance!

Most people don't take driving as seriously as they should...every time you drive a vehicle you are responsible for many lives...other things are considered more dangerous, such as swimming with sharks, skydiving, bungee jumping, etc., but the statistics would show that you are more likely to have an accident driving a car than doing any of these!

[MO]

Originally Posted by bscampbell

Looking up (beyond first 10-20m of car) when driving, allowing suitable buffer zones, slowing down, etc., etc...I consciously do this whenever I drive because it's hard to break bad habits, and I often fall back into them if I don't think about it

Personally,I drive about a kilometre in front around town, on the open road further still.

[Redrum]

I did a two week course driving around the lovely state of Victoria, speeding, performing mock pursuits, doing obstacle type courses at Avalon and skid pan all wheel skids also. Had a ball and I get to put into practice most of this driving every day on the road.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Redrum

. . . speeding, performing mock pursuits, doing obstacle type courses at Avalon and skid pan all wheel skids also. Had a ball and I get to put into practice most of this driving every day on the road.

I seriously hope you are joking right?

[Laminge]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

I seriously hope you are joking right?

Me Three

Bloody Nora, a thread mined after 2 years.......

[Peuty]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

I seriously hope you are joking right?

I think you will find that he is a police officer mate.....

[Aquarius]

Originally Posted by Peuty

I think you will find that he is a police officer mate.....

Obviously a pretty immature one then! :togo:

[manny_papa]

Im going to be doing the Ian Luff training
Stage 1. Drive to survive
Stage 2. Advanced car control
Stage 3. Performance Driving

Doing it with my two cousins, we thought we should do it seeing as though we all have fast cars (xr8,b4 liberty, liberty spec b gt), we agreed that there are things we dont know or have less experience in. Doing stage 1 on the 25th of may so if you guys/gals want me to post up how it went, let me know.

[Aeron]

Originally Posted by manny_papa

Im going to be doing the Ian Luff training
Stage 1. Drive to survive
Stage 2. Advanced car control
Stage 3. Performance Driving

You'll enjoy them mate. I've done Stage 1, Stage 2 (3times ) & Stage 3.

Here is a little clip of me doing part of Stage 2 ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh85K8VEYkg

And this is at the end of the day with Stage 3 ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqY9sTIgJgM

Mate, you'll enjoy it so much!!

[manny_papa]

nice video clips mate looks really fun!

in stage 3 are you able to go around by yourself ?

[EBTom]

I did the Murcotts Defensive Stage 1. It was ok, didnt get too many goes on the pan and most of the stuff they taught i was already familiar with, but i gained many good tips in regard to observation. It was given to me as a present from my girlfriends mum so couldnt complain.
Unfortunately the experience was kinda soured because the whole day i had to put up with LHM and other auto problems but I guess i reccomend the course, informative and fun.

[Rev28K]

Well seeing as this thread has come back from the dead…..

Over the years John Bowe Drive to Survive and Racecraft course, Jim Murcott – Level 1 (I thought that the Bowe one was better), Christian Drivers (?!) race course, DECA courses with car clubs, RACV introductory course (years ago), Motorvation(?) course years ago and various on track instruction from about 5 or so car clubs that I’ve been in over the years. You are never too old to learn or practice.

Some of this training has saved me over the years (recognize dangerous situations, know what to do if/when they do occur, let me push my car much harder than the “average road” driver on circuits). I knew that I wanted to go faster and the main limiting factor was the nut behind the wheel (sometimes it still is).

It is way too late to start learning about escape routes, swerve and recover and yours and the cars limits when you are faced with an emergency and have only a few seconds to do the right thing with no second chances. I’d rather be surrounded on the roads by people that have done these courses than by people that have only done enough to get a license and haven’t done a single thing to improve their driving since then.

I can still remember my disgust with an editorial from the RACV president stating that he didn’t need to do a course showing how he could corner better or brake safely. I never renewed after that.

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by Aquarius

Obviously a pretty immature one then! :togo:

Why immature? I am just stating fact.