FPV vs HSV sales

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by flappist

Interesting posts with two things in common.

Nothing good to say about FPV.
Never bought an FPV.

Maybe if the internet was not so full of alleged "Ford Fans" who constantly berate all Ford product on fora or other social media then some who are just researching a possible purchase may not be put off.........

Anyone who buys a car based off what some random person says on a forum needs their head read.

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

Talking about heritage not sure about the age of users here, the ''GT'' is no:1 when talking heritage and Aussie vehicles in the same sentence.

Agreed the GT brand is stonger....but the issue Ford has is the dropping of the V8 just as PB mentioned when P Brock starts to dominate (The XF S pack wasnt that good..LOL..even though they sold).

So Ford drop the V8...drop the GT...bring it back in pretty average form during EB then EL...change pretty much everything come AU because they dont have the fire power..somehow the T3 popped out which shows what good/passionate people can achieve....

The they slap GT on the BA..and even though the I6T was arguably better in most ways the GT still sold on the name alone.

Point being its history is disjointed...whether HSV/HDT have had the same product and same message for a long time. Its hard to bring back a generation of buyers, momentum is easier to carry on.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Anyone who buys a car based off what some random person says on a forum needs their head read.


Agreed the GT brand is stonger....but the issue Ford has is the dropping of the V8 just as PB mentioned when P Brock starts to dominate (The XF S pack wasnt that good..LOL..even though they sold).

So Ford drop the V8...drop the GT...bring it back in pretty average form during EB then EL...change pretty much everything come AU because they dont have the fire power..somehow the T3 popped out which shows what good/passionate people can achieve....

The they slap GT on the BA..and even though the I6T was arguably better in most ways the GT still sold on the name alone.

Point being its history is disjointed...whether HSV/HDT have had the same product and same message for a long time. Its hard to bring back a generation of buyers, momentum is easier to carry on.

ing poor old BA GT cops it again by another non owner..

[Falcon SXR8]

HSV seems to have just built a better brand and image over the years just look at the hilux and the name and image it has right now, even though its really behind the other makes and has been for along time it still sells better.

[IEAT8S]

Would sales of the GT be any different if the F6 and the turbo Falcon were not in the picture???

Holden have nothing in that market and therefore hands are tied to purchase the big V8 Clubby.

2c

[Terror_Tree]

I think it goes back to the 70’s when Ford withdrew from motorsport and dropped the GT when the XC came out. 1977 proved that with the right support the XC was a competitive car. Dropping the V8 in 1982 was a big mistake made by beancounters. Ford was selling heaps of Falcons, so they had the money to invest in a XE-XF V8 GT Falcon. Even if they lost money on each GT it’s the “image” that would sell the more profitable Falcons. Dick Johnson did heaps of work on a turbo Falcon, and Ford wasn’t interested. During the high sales of the 1980’s Ford had a great opportunity to entrench a performance image that would of flowed on for years, but beancounters blew it.

[Rodge]

In my opinion, HSV has a better interior, more special & supportive seats, (GT-P is the exception and is a match for HSV seats), more interior toys, adjustable suspension in some models, better stereo, more agressive styling, a lower / superior driving position, a wider model range and a 25 year heritage where they've built a reasonbably loyal fan base. On top of that, they advertise more, their V8 sounds better than the SC FPV and they offer the option of massive W427 brakes for sensible money, (6/4 Brembo's are heavily overpriced as an option). Just being objective folks...I know it hurts to read all that but those are the reasons IMO.

OTOH FPV currently have the motor and gearbox departments miles ahead of HSV, more comfortable suspension for everyday use, better styling, and their real world rolling performance smashes HSV.

I personally strongly dislike the hard ride of the GTS and its performance in the low - mid rev range is pretty pathetic. That and the schoolkid Mecano set styling of the thing is the main reasons I dislike them.

[The Snout]

Originally Posted by Terror_Tree

I think it goes back to the 70’s when Ford withdrew from motorsport and dropped the GT when the XC came out. 1977 proved that with the right support the XC was a competitive car. Dropping the V8 in 1982 was a big mistake made by beancounters. Ford was selling heaps of Falcons, so they had the money to invest in a XE-XF V8 GT Falcon. Even if they lost money on each GT it’s the “image” that would sell the more profitable Falcons. Dick Johnson did heaps of work on a turbo Falcon, and Ford wasn’t interested. During the high sales of the 1980’s Ford had a great opportunity to entrench a performance image that would of flowed on for years, but beancounters blew it.

Pretty much what I was going to write.

Ford surrendered the performance market like a bunch of frightened school girls, meanwhile at the other end of the decade HSV starts up and sucks up all the orphaned customers and gets a decade + start on FPV . The HDT Brock Director was probably the best thing to happen to Holden in hindsight.

You have to take the good with the bad. And also part of Ford's heritage is it's abandonment of 1982.

So throw in bad Ford decisions, better range as mentioned above, head start on FPV. It's a combination over the last say 20-30 years which leads to HSV having a lead on FPV. IMO.

[T3ts50]

Personally I think it is the lack of marketing on FPV's behalf, which IMO is due to FPV & Ford spending money on development to give the customers the cars they have been asking for.

[82XD393.3v]

i agree with the comments about Ford dropping the v8 back in 82 most people buying hsv or fpv are in the main age group that where impressionable kids watching bathurst from that era ford had nothing to cheer for on track or from factory, then they bring in a limp wristed windsor engine in 92 and holden was handing it too them in performance stakes and on the race track, since fpv came on board aside from the early typhoon turbos we still where getting a performance spanking till now.82 has cost ford the market dominance the had in the early 80,s and they are still paying for it imo

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Anyone who buys a car based off what some random person says on a forum needs their head read.

Really?

So you think that no one ever looks at what others have said about something before buying it, especially what is usually the second most expensive thing they ever buy.

Where do you do your car research?

In the brochure?
With the car sales guy?
Buy a magazine?
Ask people you know (who have read a brochure, asked a sales guy and bought a magazine)?

The internet is now the MAJOR methodology for communication with media such as twit/space/face exceeding all other forms combined.

Just google "FPV problems" or "Falcon problems" and see how many forums (including this one) pop up.

As far as the "I always bring up the 'never bought' and 'FPV bash'". Yes I do.
You can buy a second hand BA GT for under $20k, Pursuit even cheaper so the price is not really an issue.

My position is if you don't like FPV and wish to constantly berate them expect me (and others) to attack the credibility of your argument.

It is interesting to note that it appears to be mostly the same small group of malcontents who continually push this agenda. The current popular term is "frenemies".

Where are the "I could not afford new but was lucky to get an amazing (insert year/model)" threads/posts?
Or the "I can't afford it yet so I bought a XT but ONE DAY I will own a FPV"?

I am sure there are a couple somewhere hidden in the plethora of anti Ford price/model range/options/quality/performance/marketing/whatever drivel.

[Nova 8]

How come to comment on a car it is assumed that you must own the car. I see the people who blindly defend ford and claim you must own on to comment constantly bash holden for its cars and thier fans for blind support. So a bit of "do as I say" happening, that or your all secretly going out and buying holdens and then scream support ford....

I personally have never owned a FG, lots of my family members have. My brother had a SV6 and my mother had a XR6, i preferred the styling of the ford but i felt the holden was a happier driving experiance. Then you got the HSV v FPV, my uncle owned a HSV and my father the FPV. The FPV imo was the far better vehicle performance wise and more enjoyable to drive at the edge. But my god, did it look in the shadow when parked next to the HSV.

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

holden dudes have always outnumbered ford dudes since forever i can remember.....

i blame P Brock...

I'd also congratulate Holden (from that ira) for their marketing of,

"The Australian Car"

They premoted the crap out of this.

Also, you need to congratulate Ford on their withdraw of the V8. It send many V8 buyers straight to Holden/HSV.
Now after the yrs have passed, Kids, grand-kids etc have Holden on their minds. Call it Brain washing.

Marketing starts now for Ford, and thats for the future!

[SM1DY]

Originally Posted by scottyg938

Why do you think HSV seem to easily outsell FPV?

Little graph I made to help out the OP

[xisled]

Originally Posted by SM1DY

image

Little graph I made to help out the OP

I do not understand why people call Holdens drivers bogans yet Ford drivers are not.

Looking at both side they are the same.

[Fiesta_Man69]

Originally Posted by scottyg938

You turn to this every single time something like this comes up... Just because we've not bought an FPV does that mean we aren't entitled to an opinion on a forum?
Do you see all threads like this as Ford/FPV bashing?

The only 'bad' thing that's been said about FPV here is that in comparison to HSV their styling in rather bland and too similar to a base falcon

Couldn't agree more. The same few are incapable of a forum discussion due to rose coloured glasses and use the same vitriolic arguement as a defence time and again. Believe it or not, people who don't own an FPV are entitled to an opinion. Kinda the point of a forum. Nothing forces you to read every post either... Getting old...

My 2c: Ford have the superior engine but inferior package. That's the publics perception, whether true or not. Print media such as the Wheels/Motor drivel damage FPVs image: HSV consistently beat the FPV... Just look at the latest issue with the Ford on the cover with a big 0-100 in 4.5 secs... Then it gets compared to the 300 and HSV and comes last... The HSV being the best overall package, whatever that means...

HSV has also been around longer than FPV that came out of Tickford folding...

[Bud Bud]

Another reason is the V8 is a happy part of the whole Holden Commodore line up not just HSV, and always has been. This has never been in question (except in or around 1986, remember the V8 till 98 campaign?). Not everybody that buys a V8 Commodore needs a HSV, it is just that HSV is viewed by those buyers as the pinnacle of Holden performance even if they only drive an SS. Those that can afford to not look like the rest of the pack can and do buy a HSV instead.

Everybody is pin pointing 1982 as the beginning of the end for the performance image for Ford, well what do you think is happening again right now today? Why is there no NA XR8 or V8 luxury sedan? FPV is seen by the motoring public in general as an orphan placed right in the middle of the Falcon range instead of the pinnacle of Fords V8 prowess that it so rightly deserves to be, but not everybody can afford a FPV model but would still buy an XR8 instead.

And before people say but that is too expensive to build hero cars within the Falcon line up, well what do you think it cost to advertise over 10 years? And not only that, you need something different to advertise as well. Holden for years have always built either hero cars within their model line up or hero concepts which come as a cost to the company. How much money do you think they made on their last 2 door coupe effort? How many 10-15 yo kids from 2000 now drive second hand Commodores now because of the Monaro? How many will drive a HSV in the next 10-15 years?

Obviously the auto landscape has changed forever and there may not be a Falcon or a Commodore in 2-4 years time never alone the next ten years, thats a given, but if one survives then it would not be hard to see why.

If ford have already made up their mind that there will be no Falcon never alone a V8 one post 2016 then what is happening right now to the Falcon and especially the V8 makes perfect sense to me, however if indeed there is a future slated for the traditional rear wheel drive Falcon then I am as equally baffled as the rest of the same frustrated supporters on this forum.

People need to lighten up bashing the Falcon. It is good car and has served Australia well for decades but equally other people also need to lighten up bashing those that can see the forest through the trees. It is not their fault that Ford do not know what to do with the V8 Falcon these days, but if Ford keep butchering all the things that once made the V8 Falcon great (yet again), then they only have themselves to blame, after all people here are claiming heritage is what is currently driving HSV sales but you can't grow heritage if you keep changing your mind.

1982 or 2012???

Bud Bud

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69

Couldn't agree more. The same few are incapable of a forum discussion due to rose coloured glasses and use the same vitriolic arguement as a defence time and again. Believe it or not, people who don't own an FPV are entitled to an opinion. Kinda the point of a forum. Nothing forces you to read every post either... Getting old...

Problem is there are too many people who are chiming in with their opinion derived from a magazine or perception. Unfortunately if its true or not doesn't help when someone is trying to find info that they will generally buy.

I see people looking up people's reviews on $20 power tools. These days there is information (true and untrue) at people's fingertips. If there are a lot more bad opinions on a product then good people will go elsewhere.

I don't think FPV will match HSV in sales regardless. I really don't think they have the capacity and model range to do it. Also I don't believe their business case would need as many sales as HSV as they have more money invested due to more models.

[Fiesta_Man69]

Also factor in the Brock/Holden connection. Yes, Ford has Moffat and Johnson but they pale in comparison popular culture wise. Also, who is Fords gun driver today? Hard to say really. Holden have got Whincup and of course, Lowndes.

The 50th Bathurst celebrations have been going on all week. Whose car was airlifted to the top of the mountain in a promo exercise? Lowndes Holden.

Holden also have more prominent advertising with HSV... And enjoy flow on effects with the SS... HSV is the default setting of an iconic Aussie muscle car. Does this mean it's the best? Of course not, but that doesn't matter. Just look at the Cruze is "&$@ but sells it's socks off.

My 2c: if I was to sell one of my properties and plough some of that coin into a fastly depriciating asset it would be an F6. No hestitation. Phenomonal car to drive.

[Nic302ef]

Originally Posted by ivorya

I'd also congratulate Holden (from that ira) for their marketing of,

"The Australian Car"

They premoted the crap out of this.

Also, you need to congratulate Ford on their withdraw of the V8. It send many V8 buyers straight to Holden/HSV.
Now after the yrs have passed, Kids, grand-kids etc have Holden on their minds. Call it Brain washing.

Marketing starts now for Ford, and thats for the future!

Agree 100% im 25 now and while growing up from school years etc, all i ever heard was how australian holden was and if your australian why wouldnt you buy an aussie car, ford not even aussie blah blah. How much of a hard time i used to have trying to explain all the models from VB to VT where re-designed european models, including the engines both heavily based on buick 6 and 8.

Holden is the apparent australian car built in australia for aussies.... hmmmm

Fords sales did fine all the way up to the EF/L 6s and 8s, the windsor was a fair match to the old 5.0, there wasnt much difference in them, more so was holdens use of the better gearing T700 made them feel snappier.

Im sure the au debate wont have to enter as this was over 10 years ago now, basicaly as most people have said, the name is out there now, price is a big issue for some, range choice another,

I purchased a FG XR6 when they came out due to the fact the turbo was almost 10k more, couldnt justify that. Great car to this date, never had an issue with it and would recoment the product to anyone over the problomatic VE anyday.

[SM1DY]

Originally Posted by xisled

I do not understand why people call Holdens drivers bogans yet Ford drivers are not.

Looking at both side they are the same.

It's called a joke, look it up

[GTP-RPD]

Originally Posted by The Snout

Pretty much what I was going to write.

Ford surrendered the performance market like a bunch of frightened school girls, meanwhile at the other end of the decade HSV starts up and sucks up all the orphaned customers and gets a decade + start on FPV . The HDT Brock Director was probably the best thing to happen to Holden in hindsight.

You have to take the good with the bad. And also part of Ford's heritage is it's abandonment of 1982.

So throw in bad Ford decisions, better range as mentioned above, head start on FPV. It's a combination over the last say 20-30 years which leads to HSV having a lead on FPV. IMO.

Agree with what your saying my 82 ESP 5.8 would get done by a 82 VHSS 4.2litre (253 cu in) Brockie. That summed up some of the issues. But as a car I would drive to Sydney from Adelaide and back the ESP was just brilliant.

When they said no more V8 by ford in 82 I started buying second hand until 1994.

Holden new their customer base far better than Ford IMO and played on that and it worked. V8's engines were available in the Ford parts bin they just needed to follow the old philosophy of to make money you need to spend money.

[Nic302ef]

whats the scale/graph of performance cars vs standard car sales. Ford done well in cars sales all the way through the 80s and 90s. I think this is a new generation thing, and doesnt directly reflect on what happen in the past now.

Why does Toyota out sell them all? espically on there high priced hilux and landcruiser models

[BaraFGXR6]

God forbid anyone actually give the opposition credit where credit is due.

I understand that this is a Ford forum and that people are here because they like and love their Fords. And rightly so, the FG is a brilliant car for the money.

But ******* me some people are completely arrogant in the face of Ford doing anything that could be considered bad.

So what we are praising HSV on a Ford forum? We all know they've earned it and maybe Ford could learn a thing or two from it.

[Rodp]

I'm perhaps in the semi-unique position of owning both at one stage.

I had an E1 R8 and the only reason I sold it is because I screwed my left shoulder which made driving it (since it was a manual) excruciating.

I currently own an FG F6. <grumbles about having to replace the front rotors and pads for a little under a grand, today>

For speed and thrills, the F6 has it all over the HSV product. Comparing the two cars I owned, it's not even close.

For feeling that little bit special, I have to say that I miss my old R8. Some of that may be down to the fact that it was a V8. A lot of people would comment on how nice a car it was (only one person in twice the amount of ownership has said the same about my F6) randomly on the street.

Having said all that, the first thing I'll be doing tomorrow morning when I win Powerball tonight is grabbing a GT from PW and handing it over to KPM.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by SM1DY

It's called a joke, look it up

.... and one I chuckled with as, unlike some, have a sense of humour.

Originally Posted by BaraFGXR6

God forbid anyone actually give the opposition credit where credit is due.

I understand that this is a Ford forum and that people are here because they like and love their Fords. And rightly so, the FG is a brilliant car for the money.

But ******* me some people are completely arrogant in the face of Ford doing anything that could be considered bad.

So what we are praising HSV on a Ford forum? We all know they've earned it and maybe Ford could learn a thing or two from it.

How about ..... No? Why should praise be hung just because? If someone doesn't like the opposition it is very much OK to say it here in a fairly logical and un trolling manner .... BUT ...... hang crap on Ford and expect a back lash. Would you like me to remind you what most of the members here choice to drive and enjoy?????

The only credit I will give them is making sure that FPV makes a better car ..... and they did! That is all ...... now go and grab that HSV you love sooooo much.

God forbid anyone on here not liking the HSV ........ Bloody politically correctness gone mad I say!

Main reason that HSV sell more is that more people prefer the HSV ........ BUT not just because it is the better car, in many peoples minds who own an FPV ...... AND there is nothing wrong with that and stating so!

[Nova 8]

Originally Posted by SM1DY

image

Little graph I made to help out the OP

As someone who has just recent started driving a holden i am in complete amusement with the amount of moron FORD drivers there are that seem to have to prove themselve. Then again, as someone who use to drive magna's and still does like magna's you see both ford and holden drivers in the same light. Bogans who just go on about "the wrong wheels spinning" and even when the magna is faster they still just scuff that thier's is superior. The same BS in on both sides of all fences.


I personally am not a ford enthusist, I am a CAR enthusist. Be it ford or holden or any other car company, I enjoy driving and the bonds i have formed while driving with others. I have been drawn to this forum as my interest has led me to purchuse an XC falcon to rebuild BUT i drive a holden. As such i dont mind discussing holdens, I think its a decent car. It has its problems, Ill admit. But all cars do (including the current falcon) and i personally dont appriciate it being applied that im just a troll because I am willing to state what i think to be true on a public forum.


Forum: A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

Also issue with the holden is its too loud in the cabin, the pedals are 2" to the right too much, TERRIBLE on fuel, engine is unrefined, center console lid doesnt stay up, cup holders are utter crap, sprays itself with crap while driving, blind spots everywhere, TERRIBLE on fuel (worth mentioning again), speakers are crap, records three different speeds (digital, analog and average speed are all different by about 4km) and there's more i cant tihnk of. The ford should be outselling the holden but its not, hat off to holden on that one.

[steve.n]

Ive owned both models as well (Clubsport) and now White 5.0 GTP,Black stripes tint and coilovers. I cant understand all of the comments on how bland the FPV product looks as i have owned my beast for 8 mths now and not a day goes by without people giving me many compliments on how awesome my car looks.Four guys i work with have Clubsports and theres always plenty of rivalry but they all think the GTP is something special,especially after i took them for a spirited run. Each to there own as i loved my HSV but i feel special owning my FPV and love it even more,much more.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by Nova 8

I personally am not a ford enthusist, I am a CAR enthusist. Be it ford or holden or any other car company, I enjoy driving and the bonds i have formed while driving with others. I have been drawn to this forum as my interest has led me to purchuse an XC falcon to rebuild BUT i drive a holden. As such i dont mind discussing holdens, I think its a decent car. It has its problems, Ill admit. But all cars do (including the current falcon) and i personally dont appriciate it being applied that im just a troll because I am willing to state what i think to be true on a public forum.


Forum: A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

Good on you I am a FORD enthusiast and when I grow old and there are no more Fords to buy I will just get a Camry and slowly wilt away.

FORD Forum: A meeting or medium where ideas from Ford enthusiasts, with an absolute emphasis on Fords, can be exchanged without prejudice

Just stating ...... there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a Ford enthusiast rather than a general whatever and being a forum dedicated to Fords, be prepared for some biased views. You want a general forum? Whirlpool might be your go??

[Nikked]

Is there a comparisim of FPV sales, compared to regluar falcon sales? it would be good to compare that with HSV's % of commodore sales....

[pottery beige]

the harshest critics always seem to be the have nots...

have not owned, have no clue, have no idea...