Cars crashing after police call off pursuits? - Page 2

Jim Goose · 29-12-2010, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben73

If the car is not stolen then no point chasing it at all. Rock up to their house later and arrest them.

Or if can't do that then attempt a form of road block.

Or they could be drunk, or they could have a car full of drugs, or they just committed a robbery... seriously think about what your saying.
The car fails to stop and runs away.... WHY??
If they havent committed an offence why do they run?
They committed an offence by FAILING to stop.

Stop defending idiotic actions

XCwillo · 29-12-2010, 01:40 PM

Everyone seems to be overlooking the one thing that can prevent all these chases

Lamborghini cop cars

Cheap, reliable, robust, and no matter what car the crim is driving, if he see's a LP540 flash its lights, he's gonna stop it right there and think "Why even bother -_-"
But then again that would require some form of common sense
And if they're at the point of deciding to run or not, then im guessing they dont have much of it >_>

XB GS 351 Coupe · 29-12-2010, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

there is a lot of naivety in this thread, as soon as a chase is called off, the police dont just turn around and go home. They are still allowed to 'respond' with lights and sirens to the fleeing vehicle. The police are still chasing the car, but its no longer called a pursuit so their ***** are covered in case something goes wrong. The crim will still feel he is being chased, because he is still being chased.

If a pursuit is called off the pursuit vehicle must immediately turn off its sirens and all warning devices, and come to a complete stop or even turn around, it most certainly is not allowed to continue following the car using sirens and lights as that is what a pursuit is.

Ben73 · 29-12-2010, 02:27 PM

I am not defending criminals who run. Police should instantly crash into the other car and perform a pit and force them to stop. Atleast if they crash if will only be the offender into a tree or something.
Won't have to have the risks of a chase then.

Bobman · 29-12-2010, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratter

Imagine if the police did not pursue, every man and his dog would then run, even for the smallest of infringements. How safe would we all be then?

Not any worse off than we are now with the current justice system in place.

As has been mentioned here, in Victoria during pursuits a 'hi lo' tone is broadcast over the radio from VKC during a pursuit that is terminated - mostly at the discretion of the local sergeant/senior sergeant. In the case of a General Duties car being the leader in the pursuit, if available a Highway Patrol car takes over and all units are debriefed following the pursuit.

It's very common to see the car come to grief following a pursuit termination. There were 2 very publicised fatal pursuits in the 1990s in Melbourne that led to a review of all procedures. One was the triple fatality into a power pole near Flinders Street station and another in Glen Iris. Both cars were totalled and both times police were alleged to have called the pursuit off, but some witnesses said otherwise.

It really is a catch 22, but the sad thing is there have been innocent fatalities who have been wiped out by either the offending vehicle or a police car in the past - one such time two police cars were involved in a collision resulting in a police fatality.

bigsta · 29-12-2010, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben73

If the car is not stolen then no point chasing it at all. Rock up to their house later and arrest them.

Or if can't do that then attempt a form of road block.

Its very likely that the car has not been reported stolen as yet.

This is a difficult situation for all involved 99% of police are excellent ppl just doing their job which is to protect us you do get the odd 1% who are bloody idiots to say the least and do more to inflame a situation than calm it down thankfully in NSW they have transferred all the idiots to a single squad for easy identification the public order and riot squad these jokers although at times particularly dealing with certain mid east gangs their style is preferable have really taken the average kid on the street views/attitude about cops into the gutter which means when a general duties officer comes across them the next time the the stupid kid still with his back up after being bashed up by the PORS takes it out on the uniform they have in front of them or does the runner leading to a pursuit.

The PCYC use to be a great tool for kids getting to know the police and keeping them out of trouble too, im not sure what happened to these statewide but in my area when i was a kid i use to hang out at them all the time and now all 5 that i knew off have been shut down and units built where they were.

I think the best option for pursuits is a EM jamming thing i saw a few years back where a police car could send out a EM pulse (or something along those lines) which screwed up the electronics of the car being pursued leading to engine shut down im not sure what happened to that or if it worked properly but the test i saw on tv about it looked promising and I think that is a bit of tech all the police should have which would safely end pursuits.

Until that tech comes along they should use polair more to follow the vehicle keeping the ground support close by ready to move in when the car stops.

bigsta · 29-12-2010, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

If a pursuit is called off the pursuit vehicle must immediately turn off its sirens and all warning devices, and come to a complete stop or even turn around, it most certainly is not allowed to continue following the car using sirens and lights as that is what a pursuit is.

usually they will shut off sirens and slow down to a safer speed but continue along their previous course looking for the offenders usually dropping back to a KM or so behind them out of visual range of the fleeing vehicle.

BHDOGS · 30-12-2010, 03:14 AM

Rather then doing reviews and examinations into the chase after the douche bag has crashed into a pole and killed himself why not present the police involved with medal for taking care of another idiot it can be called tcoai medal once theyve collected ten medals they get a 20 gift card or something.

wrongwaynorris · 30-12-2010, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben73

If the car is not stolen then no point chasing it at all. Rock up to their house later and arrest them.

Or if can't do that then attempt a form of road block.

People can kill you just as dead in a car they own as in a stolen one .

wrongwaynorris · 30-12-2010, 09:13 AM

One of the biggest problems is when these vermin are caught they get a slap on the wrist , dole out some REAL punishments . 1st offence 6 month NO parole . 2nd offence 5 years No parole . 3rd offence life NO parole . If there were consequences to peoples actions they would not be so willing to do theses things . the ones that would anyway are not going to be stopped no matter what the punishment is so I concur with BHDogs idea , sadly though it is usually an innocent family they take out .

GoldCoastGTP · 30-12-2010, 10:07 AM

Damed if we do and damed if we don't
If they run and get away with it it is bragging rights to their mates if they run and come a buster it is the police's fault for pushing them over the limit what happened to take responsibilty for your own actions
90% of runners are scared, they have had a drink and may be over the limit , they have forgotten the licence but most will come to the senses and stop in about 20 secs when they realize it s frutile
Getting through to all the do gooders in this nanny world is like

castellan · 30-12-2010, 11:30 AM

I know of a dude who told me if he is now just plodding along the highway at 140KM/H and he spots cops he is not stopping because he will loss his licence. with the current laws being to strict with speed he said he has to much to lose. so he has it in his head that he is going to run them and take the chance.

He said there is nothing wrong or dangerous with him driving along on a good country road at 140 KM/H in his FPV and they can all go get f ed. (he was really angry about it.) this may of been just pub talk and he was drunk.

So should cops chase some one just because they were exceeding the speed limit. i think not. all that happens is the risk of accidents is increased.

But if it's a stolen car thief murder ect you would have to chase them down to the end of the earth. you just can't let scum like this get away with it at all.

ThaFlash · 30-12-2010, 11:41 AM

i aint sure, if someone could verify or otherwise, i heard in Victoria they were brining in a law that if you run from the cops in this fashion, it is mandatory jail time?

flappist · 30-12-2010, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

One of the biggest problems is when these vermin are caught they get a slap on the wrist , dole out some REAL punishments . 1st offence 6 month NO parole . 2nd offence 5 years No parole . 3rd offence life NO parole . If there were consequences to peoples actions they would not be so willing to do theses things . the ones that would anyway are not going to be stopped no matter what the punishment is so I concur with BHDogs idea , sadly though it is usually an innocent family they take out .

Yep, problem is.....the tougher the penalty the less likely they are to stop.

The whole idea is to remove the danger NOT catch the offender.

Too many lose focus on that we live in a society made up of all sorts of people and rules are viewed differently by individuals.

You may think that punishing someone for running away from Police should be the same as that for manslaughter but there are others out there who, for example, believe there is no greater crime the ecological vandalism and anyone who maybe mods their car so it makes more power than it did originally is wasting resources and creating more pollution so therefore should be jailed for say 6 months first offense.

So which is the greater crime?

Endangering a couple of people by going fast for a few minutes

OR

Endangering the whole human race by modding your Falcon......

Or do you believe that only things you think are bad should be punished severely?

We all have to live together and we are all different........

wrongwaynorris · 30-12-2010, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Yep, problem is.....the tougher the penalty the less likely they are to stop.

The whole idea is to remove the danger NOT catch the offender.

Too many lose focus on that we live in a society made up of all sorts of people and rules are viewed differently by individuals.

You may think that punishing someone for running away from Police should be the same as that for manslaughter but there are others out there who, for example, believe there is no greater crime the ecological vandalism and anyone who maybe mods their car so it makes more power than it did originally is wasting resources and creating more pollution so therefore should be jailed for say 6 months first offense.

So which is the greater crime?

Endangering a couple of people by going fast for a few minutes

OR

Endangering the whole human race by modding your Falcon......

Or do you believe that only things you think are bad should be punished severely?

We all have to live together and we are all different........

Bloody long long long bow and an innacurate analogy .

flappist · 30-12-2010, 02:19 PM

OK....

Simpler situation.

Everyone who drives a car has one thing in common....they are human beings.

A person is driving along at night after having a couple of beers when all of a sudden a police car going the other way hits the disco and does a U turn.

One of the most basic human instincts is "flight or fight". Instant panic.....what if they are over 0.05.....panic... what to do, but already they are have accelerated away before they realise they have done it.

Oh no, now even if they are not over they have done a runner and they WILL go to jail.

Got to escape....got to survive....panic mode...

BANG....dead....

The police car catches up and calls in that they can no longer attend the domestic they were going to as they have just come across fatal accident.

Coroner finds the driver had a BAC of 0.02 and the family and friends just cannot understand how this tragedy could possibly happen.

Now tell me you have never been in a situation where all of a sudden a police car seemed to be about to chase or intercept you but just ignored you completely.
Did you have a few seconds of panic, suddenly double check your speed, try extra hard to remember what the constantly changing speed limit is, is you license up to date, rego paid, car road worthy, what time did you stop drinking last night?

Young people in particular tend to be very emotional and instinctive and tend to react without thinking or reasoning.

Increasing the penalties in the way you have described will just cost lives......

Jim Goose · 30-12-2010, 02:26 PM

Oh thats right, Police should stop doing their job because people may panic and kill themselves because they are drunk or maybe speeding and in fear of their lives when they see flashing blue and red lights...

You can see it everytime a Police car under sirens drives past, people going into a frenzy, driving off cliffs or into power poles...

People react like idiots because they are either too stupid or too drunk or maybe guilty of committing a crime.

Now who is on their high horse?

flappist · 30-12-2010, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Oh thats right, Police should stop doing their job because people may panic and kill themselves because they are drunk or maybe speeding and in fear of their lives when they see flashing blue and red lights...

You can see it everytime a Police car under sirens drives past, people going into a frenzy, driving off cliffs or into power poles...

People react like idiots because they are either too stupid or too drunk or maybe guilty of committing a crime.

Now who is on their high horse?

Where did I say not to pursue?

I stated that increased penalties are NOT the solution.

Just like mandatory life stopped drug dealing in QLD, no it just increased violence.
Just like the death penalty stopped rapes, no it just increased rape murders.

If you are DEFINITELY going to go to jail for 5 years why would you stop?

In Mareeba in the 1980s when the penalty for drug dealing was mandatory life and the penalty for murder was mandatory life there were lots of people killed and even a police car machine gunned.

Mareeba AUSTRALIA not Mareeba Texas or Mareeba Nigeria.....

The law was repealed for that reason.

ThaFlash · 30-12-2010, 02:43 PM

You guys the flapmeister pulled you in hook line and sinker I was waiting for it, I was hehehe.....

I can tell you I have thought of running, not because I am guilty of anything but because something comes over you and you need to shake your head to get back into the reality of the situation. It's like when you go hunting and you want to shoot whoever is with you or if you are near a cliff you get right up there real dangerously close.... Ya know what I mean!

Btw I don't have a crim record, for the record.

4Vman · 30-12-2010, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThaFlash

You guys the flapmeister pulled you in hook line and sinker I was waiting for it, I was hehehe.....

I can tell you I have thought of running, not because I am guilty of anything but because something comes over you and you need to shake your head to get back into the reality of the situation. It's like when you go hunting and you want to shoot whoever is with you or if you are near a cliff you get right up there real dangerously close.... Ya know what I mean!

Btw I don't have a crim record, for the record.

Yet....

Jim Goose · 30-12-2010, 02:47 PM

And a lighter penalty will do what?

We already see time and time again that when people stand in front of a judge or magistrate that they get a slap on the wrist and let go.

Do you honestly think that this means the Police are more likely to do their job properly? or more likely to accept bribery because they know whats the point of doing my job catching crooks if they are let go with minimal or no punishment?

The penalties we currently have are tough enough, its the fact that the courts never seem to dish out hard penalties which then makes the public rise up in anger calling for harsher punishments.

ThaFlash · 30-12-2010, 02:49 PM

its because the topic is taking a little detour, which is good, it's more like why people are running rather than the police doing something wrong.

i am able to contribute rather than get into slanging match....

flappist · 30-12-2010, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

And a lighter penalty will do what?

We already see time and time again that when people stand in front of a judge or magistrate that they get a slap on the wrist and let go.

Do you honestly think that this means the Police are more likely to do their job properly? or more likely to accept bribery because they know whats the point of doing my job catching crooks if they are let go with minimal or no punishment?

The penalties we currently have are tough enough, its the fact that the courts never seem to dish out hard penalties which then makes the public rise up in anger calling for harsher punishments.

You and Scrooby have have a lot in common.......

But you must have some example where a huge increase in penalty has prevented some form of behavior.

How about hoon laws?
Alcopop tax?
Speed cameras?

Jim Goose · 30-12-2010, 03:12 PM

And who is scrooby?

Hoon laws? What huge increase in penalty? Most of the laws have been there already. the only difference is that Police are able to confiscate cars for a period of time.
Most of the people who have their cars taken off them probably wouldnt care to be honest....

Alcopop tax? A tax on vices like smoking... people can change their vices or not. Its their choice... and i thought we were talking about police chases, you know... crime?

Speed Cameras? and? What increase in penalty there? The fine you get with a speed camera is the same as being pulled over by the police. No difference. (and no i dont agree with them) but a speed camera is a device, not a punishment.

Can we now get back on topic...

ThaFlash · 30-12-2010, 03:14 PM

also the benifit of listening to the scanner you can fully appreciate the behind the scenes work police do, not just in relation to high speed chases but with everything.

in one instance a highspeed chase suspect was aprehended later that night becasue an officer recognised him as they drove passed in the stolen car, as it turned out that guy had outstanding warrants, drugs were found on him, screwdrivers etc.... by the end of the night that guy's highspeed chase problems were the tip of the iceberg, he had bigger probs to worry about.

and what set it off for me in the end was the detectives, usually stay off air recognised this guy (name over air no probs) and wanted him bad.

there is a huge team effort involved and none this stuff make the media.

all in all i would say everything is in proportion, the crime and the punishment.

wrongwaynorris · 30-12-2010, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

OK....

Simpler situation.

Everyone who drives a car has one thing in common....they are human beings.

A person is driving along at night after having a couple of beers when all of a sudden a police car going the other way hits the disco and does a U turn.

One of the most basic human instincts is "flight or fight". Instant panic.....what if they are over 0.05.....panic... what to do, but already they are have accelerated away before they realise they have done it.

Oh no, now even if they are not over they have done a runner and they WILL go to jail.

Got to escape....got to survive....panic mode...

BANG....dead....

The police car catches up and calls in that they can no longer attend the domestic they were going to as they have just come across fatal accident.

Coroner finds the driver had a BAC of 0.02 and the family and friends just cannot understand how this tragedy could possibly happen.

Now tell me you have never been in a situation where all of a sudden a police car seemed to be about to chase or intercept you but just ignored you completely.
Did you have a few seconds of panic, suddenly double check your speed, try extra hard to remember what the constantly changing speed limit is, is you license up to date, rego paid, car road worthy, what time did you stop drinking last night?

Young people in particular tend to be very emotional and instinctive and tend to react without thinking or reasoning.

Increasing the penalties in the way you have described will just cost lives......

If people have that little self and impulse control not only hould they not be behind the wheel of a car they should not be walking free in society .

Scaffy · 30-12-2010, 04:52 PM

Oh please! I can see exactly what flappist is saying, but it appears many people seem to have these blinkers on and can't think outside their own little world. If the world were perfect and everyone made the right decisions - the decisions most of us do make (most of the time) - then we wouldn't have to worry about criminals, whether they be career criminals or the criminal who is a decent human being but makes one poor decision resulting in an unfortunate outcome - be it a criminal conviction, severe injury or the loss of life. Believe me, there are many of the latter incarcerated in our prison system who cannot explain why they did what they did. Take the left door or the right door. Left. Wrong door. Bang!

I'm also against the argument of harsher penalties or mandatory jail terms. The penalties that are available are sufficient to fit the crime. It's just that in some cases it appears the judicial system doesn't hand down a punishment which reflects peoples' personal views. Until you are in the courtroom, heard all mitigating factors and disregard the selected, so-called "facts" you're fed by the media, I don't think your opinion on penalties or the judicial system really counts. If you have such an issue with it, go speak to your local MP like the other thousands (haha, more like 5) who really want to do something about it.

castellan · 30-12-2010, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

If people have that little self and impulse control not only hould they not be behind the wheel of a car they should not be walking free in society .

Should not be Walking free in society. SIEG HEIL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jim Goose · 30-12-2010, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Oh please! I can see exactly what flappist is saying, but it appears many people seem to have these blinkers on and can't think outside their own little world. If the world were perfect and everyone made the right decisions - the decisions most of us do make (most of the time) - then we wouldn't have to worry about criminals, whether they be career criminals or the criminal who is a decent human being but makes one poor decision resulting in an unfortunate outcome - be it a criminal conviction, severe injury or the loss of life. Believe me, there are many of the latter incarcerated in our prison system who cannot explain why they did what they did. Take the left door or the right door. Left. Wrong door. Bang!

So in other words, if police try and pull someone over and they run your saying they should be let off because they have decided to make poor choice and shouldnt be punished for it?

If you have an overwhealming desire to run from police because they come up behind you, then you have something wrong with you, OR your trying to hide something.

This why there are certain laws around to punish people who make incredibly poor choices in life (yes some laws are so stupid they make you laugh). But if you have done nothing and are simply driving around minding your own business and Police pull you over, you do the right thing and pull over.

I drove a very distintive XB sedan for many yrs and on average i was being pulled over EVERY month for 5yrs. Police and the Mermaids would go over my car with a fine tooth comb. And each time i saw the lights behind me i had no desire to run.
And why? because i had NOTHING TO HIDE.

Yet this idea is abhorrent to you?

mr smith · 30-12-2010, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

OK....

Simpler situation.

Everyone who drives a car has one thing in common....they are human beings.

A person is driving along at night after having a couple of beers when all of a sudden a police car going the other way hits the disco and does a U turn.

One of the most basic human instincts is "flight or fight". Instant panic.....what if they are over 0.05.....panic... what to do, but already they are have accelerated away before they realise they have done it.

Oh no, now even if they are not over they have done a runner and they WILL go to jail.

Got to escape....got to survive....panic mode...

BANG....dead....

The police car catches up and calls in that they can no longer attend the domestic they were going to as they have just come across fatal accident.

Coroner finds the driver had a BAC of 0.02 and the family and friends just cannot understand how this tragedy could possibly happen.

Now tell me you have never been in a situation where all of a sudden a police car seemed to be about to chase or intercept you but just ignored you completely.
Did you have a few seconds of panic, suddenly double check your speed, try extra hard to remember what the constantly changing speed limit is, is you license up to date, rego paid, car road worthy, what time did you stop drinking last night?

Young people in particular tend to be very emotional and instinctive and tend to react without thinking or reasoning.

Increasing the penalties in the way you have described will just cost lives......

So whats the plan?

Easier or no penalties would see the majority run. I belive the average bloke would stop because of the current penalties and even more so if they were tougher.

As a point, the one thing stopping me getting a new FG FPV is the hoon laws. The same laws saw my road bikes go and be replaced with adventure and enduro machines, its slowed me down (and put my ego on the shelf) and may have saved my own and others lives.