NSW Premier: Speed Camera Review

[FGII-XR6]

In NSW fixed cameras are just a stupidity tax you have 3 signs before the camera warning you that if you don't slow down to the speed on the sign you will be booked. if you are stupid enough to be booked after passing 3 warning signs you deserve what you get. and before you ask I have never been booked by one of these cameras

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

Wha? I'm agreeing that fixed speed cameras are a waste of time...if someone gets finedd around them, I guess it proves they deserve it then doesn't it...?

Aside from that, I'm not sure exactly why that's directed at me?

No it was not directed at or against you in any way.

It was just an addition to and supportive of your comment on the lack of effectiveness of speed cameras.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by TheInterceptor

Meh, i absolutly hate to the absolute max "saftey cameras". If im caught in the wrong spot when the lights being to change, it means i either have to slam the brakes or gun it.

How do you get caught, intersections haven't given me issues? Red light or no red light camera.

[TheInterceptor]

Originally Posted by vztrt

How do you get caught, intersections haven't given me issues? Red light or no red light camera.

Im talking about "saftey" cameras, red light and speed. Let say you are roughly 10m away doing 60 and it changes, you either stop or go. If its raining and i stomp on the brake's, at 60 ill lock up and slide a good 10 meters before coming to a stop. Took me 4 - 5m to stop locked up in the dry from about 50.

All in all its about timing and situation.

Also they havent given me any issues either, got close to that sweet spot once though. Only because i was tired enough to hesitate. Again, timing and situation..

[Ben73]

To back up my previous post, I have ZERO problem with red light cameras. I think they are good. But the speed and red light cameras together are unnecessary.
1. Taking your eyes off the road near an intersection to look at your speedo is probably worse then doing 5 over through the intersection. ( I mean if you happened to be accidentally doing 5 over and someone steps in front of you at least you will see them straightaway. If they step infront of you just as you glance at your speedo, well they are screwed)

2. Some people will panic on an approach to the intersection, then unnecessarily slam on the brakes as it goes orange to make sure they don't get a fine. Instead they increase the risk of getting a bumper in the back of the head from the car behind who just happened to look at his speedo as the car in front hit the brakes.

I have seen many near misses because of people stopping unnecessarily at an intersection with a red light camera. They seam to panic and brake hard when they could of easily passed through in time. I can only assume adding a speed camera in the mix as well and it will only worsen the problem.

School zone cameras = Good
Red light cameras alone = good
Fixed cameras at black spots = good
Police patrols checking speed = good
Railway xing cameras = good (had many cars cross in front of me while the gates are down.)

Everything else = bad.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by TheInterceptor

Im talking about "saftey" cameras, red light and speed. Let say you are roughly 10m away doing 60 and it changes, you either stop or go. If its raining and i stomp on the brake's, at 60 ill lock up and slide a good 10 meters before coming to a stop. Took me 4 - 5m to stop locked up in the dry from about 50.

All in all its about timing and situation.

Also they havent given me any issues either, got close to that sweet spot once though. Only because i was tired enough to hesitate. Again, timing and situation..

If your 10m from the intersection and it changes you will make it with the yellow, it doesnt suddenly go red. If its yellow and your 10m away then you shoulve already been slowing down.

Planting your foot also increases your fine if your caught by a camera or mr plod.

[TheInterceptor]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

If your 10m from the intersection and it changes you will make it with the yellow, it doesnt suddenly go red. If its yellow and your 10m away then you shoulve already been slowing down.

Planting your foot also increases your fine if your caught by a camera or mr plod.

Not exactly 10m but at a distance close enough but far enough. For arguments sake..

I understand your point and the whole idea.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

Here's an interesting little snippet from an article I found...



Source: http://www.carr.org.au/traffic%20cameras.htm

I don't know if it's fact or not, as I couldn't find any data -.

http://www.arrb.com.au/admin/file/co...%20cameras.pdf, it appears to be a review of Andreassen's work. Had a light read but unsure as to its final conlcusion.

[bigsta]

Originally Posted by Ben73

Let's hope they get rid of those stupid red light and speed cameras that are one unit. I don't see how they save lives.

And they should also make mobile speed cameras more visible or get rid of them completely.


I'd love to hear the opinions on the article from all of all our speed camera lovers we have on this site.

I have seen first hand down the road from me these new "safety" cameras causing accidents, its only a matter of time if it has not already happened that someone will be killed by them.

There has been a new one installed just before the CCT on New south head rd now the signs arnt the clearest and it isent till you get to the intersection that you can see which way you need to go so ppl are always changing lanes before, through and after the intersection i use to see the odd accident there now i see one every second day, DRIVERS ARE DISTRACTED BY THE SPEED CAMERA AND DON'T SEE AN IDIOT DOING SOMETHING THEY SHOULDN'T AND BOOM speed does not come into it all about concentration or the disruption of it i should say.

When you go through an intersection even if you have the green you should always check both ways to make sure some idiot is not running a red, the last thing you should be doing at an intersection where you have cross traffic, Pedestrian crossings, idiotic bike lanes and and idiots changing lanes is look down at your speedo, it only takes a second.

In Germany they recently removed all speed cameras saying they had increased accidents.

And look at where speed cameras are placed, the fact that they are usually at the end of a hill or somewhere that will catch you creeping over the limit, the fact of the matter is that the safest scenario is everyone moving at the same speed in a orderly fashion not weather someone momently goes 10kph over on a grade, the idiots that drive 50kms over through traffic wont be caught by the camera anyway and the fact that on the last day of parliament labour gave the go ahead for 600 Macquarie bank owned and run mobile speed cameras with no tolerance speaks volumes as to the true purpose of them.

the only cameras I will support on our roads is fixed red light cameras without the speed component.

[bigsta]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

In NSW fixed cameras are just a stupidity tax you have 3 signs before the camera warning you that if you don't slow down to the speed on the sign you will be booked. if you are stupid enough to be booked after passing 3 warning signs you deserve what you get. and before you ask I have never been booked by one of these cameras

actually no the new safety cameras have one warning sign which is a pic of a camera and is about 400x400

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by Ben73

2. Some people will panic on an approach to the intersection, then unnecessarily slam on the brakes as it goes orange to make sure they don't get a fine. Instead they increase the risk of getting a bumper in the back of the head from the car behind who just happened to look at his speedo as the car in front hit the brakes.

I have seen many near misses because of people stopping unnecessarily at an intersection with a red light camera. They seam to panic and brake hard when they could of easily passed through in time. I can only assume adding a speed camera in the mix as well and it will only worsen the problem.
.

Ben I suggest you consult the road laws on what you are meant to do when an amber light appears in front of you, particularly:

Stopping for a yellow traffic light or arrow
(2) The driver must stop—

(a) if there is a stop line at or near the traffic lights or arrows and the driver can stop safely before reaching the stop line—as near as practicable to, but before reaching, the stop line; or
.

There is no option that the driver can keep going if they reckon they can get over the line before the light turns red, basically the driver must stop if they can and it is safe to do so. Just because you can get away with this with the red light camera doesnt make it legal.

Drivers can argue their case that they were being tailgated by a truck for example, but arguing that you kept going because the you reckon the person behind you was thinking you were going to run the amber wont hold up.

If there is real evidence that rear end collisions are more prevalent at camera locations, then it simply indicates that far too many people need a refresher course on what to do when they see an amber light.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by bigsta

When you go through an intersection even if you have the green you should always check both ways to make sure some idiot is not running a red, the last thing you should be doing at an intersection where you have cross traffic, Pedestrian crossings, idiotic bike lanes and and idiots changing lanes is look down at your speedo, it only takes a second.

.

Spot on.
But cameras are purely about money making. Safety doesn't come into it. it doesn't matter.


They say they put these cameras at 'black spots' Well i have been passing through the same intersection for the past 15 years and have only seen a few fender benders, and 1 person get hit by a car(100% pedestrians fault). No major accidents at all. What do you know, 2 weeks ago they installed a Red and Speed combo camera. Yeah Safety First I am SURE!

And to add to that, previously the red arrow would disappear after a few seconds allowing you to turn when clear..... Soon as the camera went in, red arrow no longer disappears.... Hmmmmm So for the past 15 year+ It was fine to turn, but as soon as red/speed camera goes in it is suddenly not? Revenue raising, that's all I can say.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Ben I suggest you consult the road laws on what you are meant to do when an amber light appears in front of you, particularly:

Stopping for a yellow traffic light or arrow
(2) The driver must stop—

(a) if there is a stop line at or near the traffic lights or arrows and the driver can stop safely before reaching the stop line—as near as practicable to, but before reaching, the stop line; or
.

There is no option that the driver can keep going if they reckon they can get over the line before the light turns red, basically the driver must stop if they can and it is safe to do so. Just because you can get away with this with the red light camera doesnt make it legal.

Drivers can argue their case that they were being tailgated by a truck for example, but arguing that you kept going because the you reckon the person behind you was thinking you were going to run the amber wont hold up.

So according to you if you are 20 metres off a light and it suddenly goes orange you must stop.. even if you are doing 80.....

Perhaps you need to get out in the real world and see that everything doesn't run exactly by the law down to the last letter.

If someone is approaching a intersection with a camera as soon as the light goes orange what flashes through some peoples mind?
Camera+ Orange light + big $ Fine + demerit points + losing licence.
So what is their instant reaction? hit the brakes and avoid a camera flash like the plague.
Its not a slow and long process that they can sit down and assess the situation down to the last letter and make a decision whether it is safer to stop or safer to continue.
Its a spur of the moment thing, takes less then a second of reaction time. I have seen examples of it countless times where people hit the brakes too hard to stop at an intersection with a red light camera where it would of been safer for them to continue through the orange light.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by TheInterceptor

Meh, i absolutly hate to the absolute max "saftey cameras". If im caught in the wrong spot when the lights being to change, it means i either have to slam the brakes or gun it.

If they were your only two options, clearly you're not driving to the conditions. You're caught in the wrong spot because you've put yourself in the wrong spot.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by Ben73

So according to you if you are 20 metres off a light and it suddenly goes orange you must stop.. even if you are doing 80......

Ben, if it were possible to stop from 80km/h in 20m then yes, according to the law you must, but its not possible in the "real world": so quite a silly strawman you have wasted your time constructing, perhaps re doing your learner's permit might have been a better idea given your ignorance of this law.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Ben73

Perhaps you need to get out in the real world and see that everything doesn't run exactly by the law down to the last letter

ben, real world experience means nothing here

the most effective way to get results is to spend countless hours interviewing people who are not in the real world and then spend many more countless hours sorting through this break through data so they can recoup the money spent by fining road users who are human - and once this is done, the whole process starts again

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Ben, if it were possible to stop from 80km/h in 20m then yes, according to the law you must, but its not possible in the "real world": so quite a silly strawman you have wasted your time constructing, perhaps re doing your learner's permit might have been a better idea given your ignorance of this law.

Of course you cannot stop from 80 in 20m. That was the whole point behind me post.
I may of missread your post but I thought you said if the light goes orange you MUST stop... no ifs no buts.
Obviously this is not the case and you are permitted to go through orange lights if you are too close.

But that is all off topic anyway. The point behind my post before was there are some situations where the driver should and could safely pass through an orange light, but they don't.
Instead they hit the brakes unnecessarily hard to stop before the light which causes all the cars behind them to brake harder then they should have to. And if only 1 of those cars is not paying 100% attention (i.e looking at speedo) then that is likely to cause a crash.
Most of the time this happens seams to be at intersections with a red light camera. One can only assume these people are overly worried about getting fined and take unnecessary attempts to avoid the fine.

[JC]

Originally Posted by Rodp

Seriously?

I actually believe they're the only camera on the road that do make a difference. Seen several accidents by some bonehead planting it to beat the red only to plough into traffic entering from the other side of the intersection. A red light and speed camera deters those boneheads.

The fixed cameras. Pointless. Though, in NSW, if you're done by one clearly you're incapable of paying attention.

Agreed, BUT (there's always a but), the incidence of rear enders at these intersections seems to increase - they are however at lower speed with less fatalities.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by Ben73

But that is all off topic anyway. The point behind my post before was there are some situations where the driver should and could safely pass through an orange light, but they don't.
[.

Ben, again the law says if you can pull up safely then you must, rather than proceed through the yellow if you reckon you can hit the line before the light turns red, and the only criteria here is that you do it safely, which means without swerving, spinning locking up wheels etc.

If people behind run into a car that pulls up for the yellow, it is they who are driving unsafely, failing to keep a safe distance, "planting their foot to catch the yellow light" and find the car in front stop etc, it is their behaviour that needs to be addressed, not the people that are doing what they are supposed to. The law is generally inflexible in deciding who is at fault in rear end collisions.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by JC

Agreed, BUT (there's always a but), the incidence of rear enders at these intersections seems to increase - they are however at lower speed with less fatalities.

I wasn't aware that there was an increase in rear enders at red light cameras, but, as you suggest, I suspect the accidents are a lot less lethal than t-bones at potentially higher speeds.

Amber lights aren't rocket science. If you can stop safely, do so. Amber doesn't mean jam on the brakes or gun it through the intersection. If they are your only two options then please, hand in your licence.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Yeah Im a schmuck, misread the article. Can I switch my anti-Monash position now that I agree with them on something? Or does that make me a big fat hypocrite?

Nah, I don't think so - misinformation is the mother of all, well, you know - there is some record of Monash being a little...um...biased, so it's reasonable for a person to suggest that this may be that way too...

Originally Posted by flappist

No it was not directed at or against you in any way.

It was just an addition to and supportive of your comment on the lack of effectiveness of speed cameras.

Groovy.

Whilst I've held the position that if you don't speed, you won't have a problem (and I still stand by this), I can see that the current system does not work.

Originally Posted by Rodp

Amber lights aren't rocket science. If you can stop safely, do so. Amber doesn't mean jam on the brakes or gun it through the intersection. If they are your only two options then please, hand in your licence.

Seconded, again

[DBourne]

Originally Posted by Rodp

Seriously?

I actually believe they're the only camera on the road that do make a difference. Seen several accidents by some bonehead planting it to beat the red only to plough into traffic entering from the other side of the intersection. A red light and speed camera deters those boneheads.

The fixed cameras. Pointless. Though, in NSW, if you're done by one clearly you're incapable of paying attention.

I'm with you, the safety cameras are good (specially when actually sign posted)

The mongrels in the Macquaire Bank speed Territories on the other hand...

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Rodp

Amber lights aren't rocket science. If you can stop safely, do so. Amber doesn't mean jam on the brakes or gun it through the intersection. If they are your only two options then please, hand in your licence.

very true, but bring in the human element and suddenly there is not only 3-6 points on the line, but a fine as well - and surprisingly people get nervous in that situation. when nervous they second guess - when second guessing, accidents happen

i personally have not had any problems ever with red light cameras or the speed/red light cameras, but to be forced to slow down at a green light when traffic could flow is foolish. and the t-bones still have a realistic chance of happening, because if a driver is turning right and they see the traffic slowing (albeit to avoid a speeding fine, not because the light is red), they then think it is safe to proceed. fortunately all of the instances i have seen the driver turning right stopped before going too far

[SpoolMan]

Its about making as much money from the driver as possible, when you see big corporations like the successful MACQUARIE BANK get involved they know there is a good dollar to be made this is what they do for a living.

Read the numbers these cameras are like a ATM, the money is pouring in and the big revenue earners like Vic and NSW being so successful other States will continue to roll out the cameras because there is to much money to be made.
http://www.freestatevoice.com.au/pol...ponent&print=1
A review will tell them where they can install the cameras to make more cash and it will be passed off as saying there needed in this area for safety.

Nothing slows down drivers like Police presence on our roads, you see them everyone slows down, but there is no State revenue in that..

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

very true, but bring in the human element and suddenly there is not only 3-6 points on the line, but a fine as well - and surprisingly people get nervous in that situation. when nervous they second guess - when second guessing, accidents happen

That's the main problem I see with these cameras.

With red/speed cameras at intersections you can still drag race people away from the lights and not get caught. The only way to stop that is police presence.

[csv8]

SA MP Ivan Vanning has called for a Parliamentary Committee investigation into the effectiveness of speed cameras. Venning believes random drug and breath testing are producing a more positive effect in lowering the road toll than revenue-raising speed cameras (his words). The introduction of drug-driving testing in 2007 resulted in the road toll for 2008 reducing from 125 to 99-"a good move" Venning said. "Comparing the same two years ,the percentage of speed related fatalities remained almost unchanged."
AMCN Vol 60 No 19 30 March-12 April 2011

[flappist]

All these traffic flow experts......

Hypothetical situation: (one that I have been in more than one)

You are driving at the speed limit approaching a traffic light at the head of a line of vehicles that includes heavy vehicles, old vehicles, motorcycles etc. which may or may not be too close to each other.

Your vehicles is fitted with high performance brakes and tyres and can stop VERY quickly.

The light turns amber and you are capable of stopping before entering the intersection but it is probable that at least one the vehicles behind you can't.

Do you:

a) STOP, as that is the INFLEXIBLE LAW therefore triggering a huge pile up possibly killing people (who may get a posthumous traffic offence in the mail to be paid out of their estate)

b) CONTINUE ON, potentially getting your own ticket but leaving space on the front page of tomorrows paper for something other than a story of a huge traffic tragedy with a spin line from a troll rabbiting on about more speed cameras and tighter road laws......

You are not the only vehicle on the road and being concious of what is around you is a very important component of the skill set required to drive safely.

Looking at the rear view mirror and out the sides and windscreen is FAR more important than looking at the speedo.

Following road rules rigidly does NOT make you automatically safe as road rules are sometimes WRONG.......

[Jim Goose]

How about your driving an 11ton Mack (with a 9ton load on the back) along with a 9ton plant trailer and an 11ton roller and the light turns yellow?

My instructor recently told me "well done" for not jamming on the brakes at an intersection where clearly i wouldnt be able to stop safely. The light went red half way through the intersection.

The 3sec yellow does not give truckies ANY time to stop a vehicle in a safe manner.....

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

How about your driving an 11ton Mack (with a 9ton load on the back) along with a 9ton plant trailer and an 11ton roller and the light turns yellow?

My instructor recently told me "well done" for not jamming on the brakes at an intersection where clearly i wouldnt be able to stop safely. The light went red half way through the intersection.

The 3sec yellow does not give truckies ANY time to stop a vehicle in a safe manner.....

Twice in one thread......this is getting a bit scary.....

[Jim Goose]

Hey sometimes great minds think alike... hahaha ok ok ill shut up....