New ZF 8

[mik]

i could see 8 close ratio`s being more usefull on the autobahns winding up to 160 kph cruising speed, but in snailsville Australia where our speed limits are majority 100/110 kph it seems fairly pointless and with our torquey engines even more pointless, might be good for the super tourer`s though.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by mik

i could see 8 close ratio`s being more usefull on the autobahns winding up to 160 kph cruising speed, but in snailsville Australia where our speed limits are majority 100/110 kph it seems fairly pointless and with our torquey engines even more pointless, might be good for the super tourer`s though.

Not necessarily. Even retaining the same first and top gear ratio, allows gear 2 through to 7th to be closer, which will improve performance.

I've heard a few motoring journos say the gap between 2nd and 3rd in the ZF 6 is a bit too high.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by platinumXR

More to the point: Is there REALLY a need for an 8 speed automatic in a car?

Sure is, behind a diesel engine. Would make for an excellent transmsission behind any euro spec turbo diesel engine.

[data_mine]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Not necessarily. Even retaining the same first and top gear ratio, allows gear 2 through to 7th to be closer, which will improve performance.

I've heard a few motoring journos say the gap between 2nd and 3rd in the ZF 6 is a bit too high.

I'd rather a taller top gear, shorter diff = better performance and better highway economy.

I've put a 3.45 behind my ZF (factory is a 2.73), around town economy has remain about the same, but highway economy got worse. overall performance has of course increased. But with an extra gear or two overdrive would be great.

I can't say I've any complaints about the spacing of 2nd and 3rd. (that's probably due to the shorter diff).

[500SEC]

Originally Posted by chevypower

You could have a hundred gears, but would there be any benefit for your engine to rev 90+ times to get to cruising speed and having your tranny do non-stop shifting? I am not against more gears, but just don't do it for the sake making it a selling point. Or put it this way, don't assume that just because one transmission has 8 gears and another has 6, does not necessarily mean the 8 is smoother, or has better performance or has better reliability or fuel economy or better towing performance. But which ever one achivies that criteria regardless of how many gears it has. Then give me that one.

More gears will return better fuel economy and acceleration. That's a no-brainer.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by 500SEC

More gears will return better fuel economy and acceleration. That's a no-brainer.

Depends on the gearing, programming, torque convertor, how much efficiency is lost through the transmission... just to name a few other things.
I agree with the DSG comments. It is going to make a much bigger difference than just adding a couple of gears to a standard auto.

[VioletGT]

Ill stick with my 5200 converter and c4 3 speed with manual valve body thanks.

[Ross-b]

Originally Posted by Ibrox90

I also hate autos but ZF have it down to a finer art than most and they accelerate faster than manuals.

8 gears well its an auto so it picks the gear seemlessly. and i guess with 8 your always in the "right" gear.

more rev manage management meaning your always cruising at 1500-2000 rpm. ZF report 30% fuel saving and unlike L per 100kms manufactuer ratings ZF are usually on the money and truthful

although there are alot of gears to chase

[Melz]

Did anyone 35 years ago think 4 speeds were overrated?

[DJR-351]

Had a 66 327 Chev Impala with a 2 speed auto, more than enough.... : as said before, 8 is just a load of w**k....

Pretty soon we will have 15 forward and 10 reverse, maybe them truckies are onto something eh.... :

[500SEC]

Even when I was pre-driving age, I thought three speed manuals and autos (not to mention 2 speed autos) were a pretty strange way to gear a car. Even in those days, I wondered why make an engine rev its guts out, for highway cruising, with only three gears? Four speed autos went some way to curing the problem, but still felt compromised.

I remember travelling long distance in a manual HQ Kingswood. It felt like it was about to explode at only 80kph. Horrible.

The gearing in my BFII ute (4 speed auto) also feels highly compromised, in so far as its geared very highly for the freeway, yet each gear is spaced very widely apart. As a result, there's a lot of slippage which doesn't feel nice and equals inefficiency. Give me six speeds any day!

[baboon]

Got me thinking about gears. How about a 2 speed diff gear! 3.23 and 4.11 !!! Awesomeness!

[500SEC]

That's what Mitsubish had on the original Colt in the 1980s. A 4 speed gearbox tied to a 2 speed diff.

[tezxr8man]

just remember they had 9sp boxes in road trains 18years ago and those trucks still hold their own against the current models with 21sp boxes fuel and performance wise, its not about how many gears it has, its how it all works together, personally those CVT boxes are dirt too may as well have a dirty old C4 coz at least you know its gunna work properly

[Bossxr8]

The 8 speed ZF is way to expensive for Ford anyway. The current 6 speed is a pretty expensive thing now even being based on a design from early in the decade, this 8 speed being brand new will probably be twice as expensive.

When the technology becomes cheap enough in the next 5-6 years maybe Ford will look at it then, but its not going to happen anytime soon. The ZF 6 speed didn't become cost effective to use until what, maybe 5 years after it was first made?

[HSE2]

Pretty sure the 8 speed is cheaper, smaller and lighter. In having said that, it’s only cheaper based on volume which we supposedly qualified for due to the PAG relationship. That no longer applies.

[Brendo_GSUte]

CVT would be the smarter option you'd think over 8 gears

Any one know why it hasnt taken off? I think SAAB did it back in 08...

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Pretty sure the 8 speed is cheaper, smaller and lighter. In having said that, it’s only cheaper based on volume which we supposedly qualified for due to the PAG relationship. That no longer applies.

Can't see how it would be cheaper, its brand new and only been used in one car so far. Development costs haven't even been started to be re couped yet.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Brendo_BAXR8

CVT would be the smarter option you'd think over 8 gears

Any one know why it hasnt taken off? I think SAAB did it back in 08...

It seemed like a good idea in theory, but I don't think it works that well in the real world. I haven't heard any development for CVT in cars for a long time. Works alright on a Can-Am ATV though.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Can't see how it would be cheaper, its brand new and only been used in one car so far. Development costs haven't even been started to be re couped yet.

The ZF 6HP26 was lighter and cheaper then the 5 HP longitudinal that it replaced keeping in mind that the cost is representative of the high end market it was designed for.

The ZF 8 HP drops the Lepelletier gear set to be lighter more efficient and cheaper again. As ZF is a component supplier to the general industry, each generation of product advancement has to be better, lighter and cheaper if ZF is to continue to be a successful supplier in the face of stiffer competition.

Efficiency improvements of 5% or greater as well as increased torque limits are due to largely a reduction in open gear sets leading to considerably lower drag losses. In addition to the improved efficiency, this transmission concept features a higher total ratio spread from four planetary gear sets.
Without the group buy approach from Ford of the PAG generation the cost for putting such a box in a Falcon should be prohibitive for the foreseeable future.

[data_mine]

Originally Posted by Brendo_BAXR8

CVT would be the smarter option you'd think over 8 gears

Any one know why it hasnt taken off? I think SAAB did it back in 08...

They still haven't got a CVT that can take more torque than a n/a 4 banger can produce.

[388cube_edxr8]

Originally Posted by data_mine

They still haven't got a CVT that can take more torque than a n/a 4 banger can produce.

Yes but once someone gets that down to pat the Auto tranny world will be completely different. Some F1 team did it years ago (it was outruled because it was too awesome) so we know its possible. All someone needs to do is make it affordable and it will take off.

So no, we do not need 8 gears in a car. Just a good CVT.

[ltd]

What I'd love to know is how it performs against say, the ZF 6 speed box ie, shift times and the two extra gears, how that translates to acceleration.

[Piotr]

Originally Posted by data_mine

They still haven't got a CVT that can take more torque than a n/a 4 banger can produce.

Audi have an optional CVT on certain models mated to a 3L v6. Nissan also had a CVT on the 3.5L v6 V35 Skyline

[HULK EF]

Originally Posted by XR6_190

Would be a good thing in a Falcon, the fuel savings would be great, but I seriously can't see it for another 6 to 10 years at least. As for the people out there who are wandering why we need 8 gears in an auto, are you the same people that wandered why an auto would need anymore than 3 gears 35 years ago? Just wandering.

exactly.. 30 yaers ago.. 2-3 spd auto's were the biz... imagine back the the lmao's you get mentioning 5/6/7 speeds you can now get..

[388cube_edxr8]

Actually the Nissan Murano has a CVT, and its a 3.5L V6 I think. Surely it cant be that hard for a car company to build one a little tougher for use on a performance car.

Come to think of it, I reckon the new Ford 4 pot would work really well with a CVT.

[Eu-GenixX]

What is CVT?

[388cube_edxr8]

Originally Posted by Eu-GenixX

What is CVT?

Constantly Variable Transmission. The principle is basically a cone shaped gear set, where the power input and output moves up and down the cone (there are other ways of doing it too, but this is the essential idea). The idea behind it is that you can keep the engine at the exact RPM where it produces peak power whilst accelerating, theoretically providing faster acceleration and better throttle response.

The downshot is that you can't taper a cog into a cone shape and keep the teeth the same size and distance apart for the length of the cone, so the only way to do it is to use belts and things that are prone to slipping under heavy load, hence the problems with using it for serious performance use at an affordable price.

The argument that I and a couple of others are making is that an 8 speed gearbox is approaching an area that realistically should be CVT territory.

If a transmission manufacturer put any sort of decent funds into further development of a CVT, it would be above and beyond what we have come to expect from a transmission.

[388cube_edxr8]

Also, I know you can get a CVT as an option on the Honda Jazz and base model Mitsubishi Lancer. It's not very well publicized, but my uncle has a Jazz with a CVT and he reckons the way it keeps the engine at peak power when accelerating and peak efficiency when cruising is the best thing since sliced bread. I have been in the car with him and I can testify that it is really quite incredible.

If anyone finds one that can take 600kw please PM me.

[Eu-GenixX]

Wow... Cvt sounds... Well wow.. If I was a gearbox manufacturer I think I'd be looking into advancing this cvt technology