General Motors international boss Stefan Jacoby says Australia is better without car manufacturing

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

So rather than just say it's all Abotts fault, explain how. how is cutting car funding causing the three auto manufacturers we have to leave when two went under Labor who threw money at them and two under Liberal when cuts were announced. Did you think about what you posted or did you just hit submit.

All well and good to just blame someone. Doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.

yeah I do know what I am talking about.

I personally spoke to Abbott when he was in Geelong last year and I discussed certain policies with him, on national television .
He squirmed like a worm but admitted it under his breath that he would sell off anything he could, including Medibank.

He is a slippery liar, worse than any other I had met.

He signed the documents stopping funding to GMH.

I don't care if he was the preamble to the policy or not ..

did he personally sign off on the cuts?

yes he did.

and that is fact, not opinion.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by irish2

What is the relevance of this? Those conditions were union fought conditions.

Not by the unions that presided over the closure of the car industry, those entitlements came long before. If you're going to praise this union for the work done long before by other unions in the past, then you must also criticise it for the actions of other unions (eg. HSU).

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by zilo

yeah I do know what I am talking about.

I personally spoke to Abbott when he was in Geelong last year and I discussed certain policies with him, on national television .
He squirmed like a worm but admitted it under his breath that he would sell off anything he could, including Medibank.

He is a slippery liar, worse than any other I had met.

He signed the documents stopping funding to GMH.

I don't care if he was the preamble to the policy or not ..

did he personally sign off on the cuts?

yes he did.

and that is fact, not opinion.

So you're saying he said to you that, and I quote, "would sell of anything he could"...? And he said that on national television. Not calling you a liar as such, a stretcher of the truth maybe.

I'm guessing you don't really understand how a political party works. The PM does t just walk into a room, spell out what he wants and get it rubber stamped. It has to go through several party rooms and then to cabinet. Have you been paying attention to the paid parental leave issue...? He's had to back down twice already and make cuts to it, no doubt many more cuts will be made before it comes on stream. Because, and this may be a surprise to you, the PM doesnt just get what he wants.

To blame one party for an industry closing down is silly, it makes no sense as it started closing under one government and finished under another...!

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by b0son

Wait, what?? We only got these entitlements in the last 10-20 years??? Because that's the only way your statement is relevant.

Have you read the EBAs? They were overpaid, supervisor to process worker ratios were excessive, union 'training' days, ridiculous redundancy provisions... etc etc. All the same things that will spell the end of most industries with a strong union presence (eg. Qantas/aviation).

Globalisation is to blame, for sure. In an increasingly competitive market, condtions get tighter and there's less money... yet the unions always want to take more and more when the pie is getting smaller and smaller. That was never going to be sustainable.

I can confirm that from first hand experience. Every three years when the EBA was renegotiated it was interesting to watch the AMWU, ETU, AWU etc never budge on their pay increase claims. It was great while it lasted as my pay increased a lot over the year, well above the inflation rate. But as my signature say, the gravy train has ended as it was always going occur.

[mik]

Originally Posted by tempted

Lol at those defending Abbott. The current govt would have to be the most arrogant buch of wreckers this country has ever seen. They won office not on their own merits, but by using cunning tactics and running an unrelenting smear campaign on the opposition.
Abbott and his party will be gone after the next election, but we will continue to be victims of their destruction long after they have retired.

Not sure if serious !!!! Liberals didn't win .......... labor was chucked out because they where so on the nose....... the fact is no one really wanted either because they all suck..... the greens too.
Some people seem to have short memories.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by zilo

yeah I do know what I am talking about.

I personally spoke to Abbott when he was in Geelong last year and I discussed certain policies with him, on national television .
He squirmed like a worm but admitted it under his breath that he would sell off anything he could, including Medibank.

He is a slippery liar, worse than any other I had met.

He signed the documents stopping funding to GMH.

I don't care if he was the preamble to the policy or not ..

did he personally sign off on the cuts?

yes he did.

and that is fact, not opinion.

And that is your opinion...

[MercurySilver]

Pmsl
So people actually think there is a diff between lib and lab at the top?
Really?
Yet nothing ever changes no matter who gets in
Ever notice that?
Wakey wakey.......

Lol
No no, keep going on about unions ruining everything in ths country.
Its rivetting.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by b0son

Wait, what?? We only got these entitlements in the last 10-20 years??? Because that's the only way your statement is relevant.

Have you read the EBAs? They were overpaid, supervisor to process worker ratios were excessive, union 'training' days, ridiculous redundancy provisions... etc etc. All the same things that will spell the end of most industries with a strong union presence (eg. Qantas/aviation).

Globalisation is to blame, for sure. In an increasingly competitive market, condtions get tighter and there's less money... yet the unions always want to take more and more when the pie is getting smaller and smaller. That was never going to be sustainable.

Regardless of how long ago those conditions were fought for and won it was still fought and won by unions, not because CEOs of big companies gave it to you out of the love of their hearts

I've seen the EBAs, and remember to sign off on an EBA it requires TWO PARTIES TO AGREE.

Management are just as well to blame for those conditions as are the unions, as they signed off on them.

We always love pointing the finger at the blokes at the bottom, what about the people who decide what the company does? Such as Management?

OK wages and conditions push from unions, management team signed off on those, and what about poor decisions such as designing diesel Territory and then cancelling it, and then bringing it back years later?

Or the AU Falcon?

Poor dealership network

Poor quality control (BA)

You can't blame that on unions, I like how the people who actually RUN THE COMPANY get a stay of execution and can go onto ruin other companies but the guy on the bottom who assembles the things is getting lynched.

I guess if you wear a suit and tie you can get away with murder but if you wear high viz, watch out.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Regardless of how long ago those conditions were fought for and won it was still fought and won by unions, not because CEOs of big companies gave it to you out of the love of their hearts

Then give credit to the specific unions responsible. Otherwise I'll just point out Bill Gates philanthropic efforts and conclude that all CEOs are awesome people.

What have the car industry workers unions achieved? As mentioned above, some awesome pay rises and working conditions. Good for them. But unsustainable and not overly productive nevertheless, so its a bit rich for them to paint themselves as victims.

Management are just as well to blame for those conditions as are the unions, as they signed off on them.

Under threat of industrial action .... downtime costs money, the unions know it and use it to maximum effect.

There are plenty of reasons why Ford have failed, which you listed.

But the common element across the car industry has been labour cost. As it is in the aviation industry (eg. Qantas), as it is food production (eg. SPC) and others. Compare their wages/conditions against a relevant basic award. It isn't just the hourly rate, its the total package (entitlements, redundancy provisions, etc). And the total package was way more than others in the same industry but not backed by big unions. If you can get the good money while it lasts, good luck to you. But it was always going to end even if people were still buying the product. You cant reward at above the rate of inflation indefinitely.

[castellan]

The Australian car manufacturing industry never could cut it right from the first FX Holden all the way to now
If we never had tariffs we would never had a car industry ever and that's a fact.
It was all about building a nation and the spin off from having it all were great for many other things.

I believe what has been done is just short sighted and only a fool or a traitor would do such a thing to there nation.

All the ALP and liberals do is sell us out year after year to there boss the new world big brother order.
When our dollar is worth 40c to the US say ? then we will be in a pickle and the Asian currency value will rise, as it does when one gets more powerful and this is on the cards.
No one is going to invest in Australia, as why would anyone do that when you have governments like we have that give no support. it's insane !

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by castellan

The Australian car manufacturing industry never could cut it right from the first FX Holden all the way to now
If we never had tariffs we would never had a car industry ever and that's a fact.
It was all about building a nation and the spin off from having it all were great for many other things.....

Exactly. And 'nation building' happens in stages, continuing indefinitely. Things change, not every country needs an automotive business to progress (especially ones owned by other countries). Australia used the automotive industry to develop, we have progressed enough to now look at other industries - electronics, design, software, etc.

Things change, mostly for the better.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Exactly. And 'nation building' happens in stages, continuing indefinitely. Things change, not every country needs an automotive business to progress (especially ones owned by other countries). Australia used the automotive industry to develop, we have progressed enough to now look at other industries - electronics, design, software, etc.

Things change, mostly for the better.

We are the first country to ditch their Automotive industry so to jump to the conclusion that things will be better is premature.
The leadership Australia has had from both sides of the political fence is poor and Industry policy has become politicised.
Time will tell if Australia can make the grade to the next level of high tech industry without the base auto manufacturing provided.
Bill.

[marty351]

Originally Posted by MercurySilver

Pmsl
So people actually think there is a diff between lib and lab at the top?
Really?
Yet nothing ever changes no matter who gets in
Ever notice that?
Wakey wakey.......

Lol
No no, keep going on about unions ruining everything in ths country.
Its rivetting.

Tweedledee = Liberal
Tweedledum = Labor
And somewhere in that sandwich are the greens and independents

[Maka]

Originally Posted by b0son

But the common element across the car industry has been labour cost & the strength / value of the AUS dollar at the time.

Fixed.

cheer's, Maka

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by MercurySilver

Pmsl
So people actually think there is a diff between lib and lab at the top?
Really?
Yet nothing ever changes no matter who gets in
Ever notice that?
Wakey wakey.......

Lol
No no, keep going on about unions ruining everything in ths country.
Its rivetting.

The difference I have seen over the years is both parties have been moving further and further to the right. Labor now basically holds the same position as the Liberals did in the late 70's to mid 80's and the Liberals under Abbott have now adopted the far right wing Republican agenda from the states. They are basically the Australian Tea Party elected under the banner of being a Liberal government.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by Bill M

We are the first country to ditch their Automotive industry so to jump to the conclusion that things will be better is premature.
The leadership Australia has had from both sides of the political fence is poor and Industry policy has become politicised.
Time will tell if Australia can make the grade to the next level of high tech industry without the base auto manufacturing provided.
Bill.

Even if we can Bill, the reality is not everyone is suited for those type of jobs. Some people are just more productive and better suited to working with their hands.

Its a discussion that is basically ignored in the political/economic debate, but as a TAFE teacher I can tell you we are leaving whole generations of kids with no future beyond working at KFC as the jobs they would be very good at are being off shored. The social cost to our society of this is enormous.

Dan

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Maka

Fixed.

How so? How many Falcons were ever exported even when the dollar was favourable?

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Bill M

We are the first country to ditch their Automotive industry so to jump to the conclusion that things will be better is premature... .

Didn't the British car & bike industry die in the late 80's? Only to be resurrected by internationals - VW, Ford... After the Thatcher government brought around huge changes; including battles with Unions?

Now the British automotive industry is huge, but it has not come about from government subsidies.

The Australian car manufacturers & Unions had plenty of notice and compensation from various State & Federal governments over the past 30 years. Instead of knuckling down & working for a common goal they stuck their heads in the troth & plodded along, while others took the long hard road and came out the other side with huge export industries.

Yes governments a required to invest in nation building, but they must not throw good money at bad industry. The Australian car industry was bad, very bad. Just look at their sales record, compare it to overseas manufacturers. We have/had and industry that was run into the ground by poor management, poor unions & lazy governments. Lazy because they didn't want to rock the boat, they kept throwing money at management and unions appease the voter.

It's sad & I'm angry to see both Ford & Holden go but if an industry can't sell new cars at competitive prices and in large numbers, they have to be treated like any other business. Otherwise; give my business handouts as well!

I'm just glad that I have helped both Ford & Holden, by buying new cars.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Didn't the British car & bike industry die in the late 80's? Only to be resurrected by internationals - VW, Ford... After the Thatcher government brought around huge changes; including battles with Unions?

Now the British automotive industry is huge, but it has not come about from government subsidies.

The Australian car manufacturers & Unions had plenty of notice and compensation from various State & Federal governments over the past 30 years. Instead of knuckling down & working for a common goal they stuck their heads in the troth & plodded along, while others took the long hard road and came out the other side with huge export industries.

Yes governments a required to invest in nation building, but they must not throw good money at bad industry. The Australian car industry was bad, very bad. Just look at their sales record, compare it to overseas manufacturers. We have/had and industry that was run into the ground by poor management, poor unions & lazy governments. Lazy because they didn't want to rock the boat, they kept throwing money at management and unions appease the voter.

It's sad & I'm angry to see both Ford & Holden go but if an industry can't sell new cars at competitive prices and in large numbers, they have to be treated like any other business. Otherwise; give my business handouts as well!

I'm just glad that I have helped both Ford & Holden, by buying new cars.

Nice idea,

Do you think we will export any products to Asia ?

Britain is close to Europe and to North America.

In the end we are slaves to the tyrany of distance.

Ford ultimately confirmed it made no business sense to export from Australia.

[marty351]

After reading alot of this, a change to the definition of treason sounds like an idea.

[Maka]

Originally Posted by b0son

How so? How many Falcons were ever exported even when the dollar was favourable?

Did Ford USA ever have a creditable global export policy for the Australian built Falcon?

Did Ford USA ever implement a creditable global export plan for the Australian built Falcon?

"Citing multiple pressures including high local costs and an unfavourable dollar, Toyota’s global president, Akio Toyoda, said Toyota would close its manufacturing operations in 2017" Australian Financial Reveiw

http://www.afr.com/p/national/toyota...bo8AyVOBx3361M

"The decline in the numbers of cars made in Australia is caused by a combination of factors but chief among them is the high Australian dollar"
ABC New's

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-1...tralia/4886462

"Holden said in a statement that the perfect storm of a high Australian dollar, high cost of production and a comparatively small and fragmented market contributed to the decision to pull out of the country" Gizmodo

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2013/12/ho...manufacturing/


cheer's, Maka

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Didn't the British car & bike industry die in the late 80's? Only to be resurrected by internationals - VW, Ford... After the Thatcher government brought around huge changes; including battles with Unions?

Now the British automotive industry is huge, but it has not come about from government subsidies.

The Australian car manufacturers & Unions had plenty of notice and compensation from various State & Federal governments over the past 30 years. Instead of knuckling down & working for a common goal they stuck their heads in the troth & plodded along, while others took the long hard road and came out the other side with huge export industries.

Yes governments a required to invest in nation building, but they must not throw good money at bad industry. The Australian car industry was bad, very bad. Just look at their sales record, compare it to overseas manufacturers. We have/had and industry that was run into the ground by poor management, poor unions & lazy governments. Lazy because they didn't want to rock the boat, they kept throwing money at management and unions appease the voter.

It's sad & I'm angry to see both Ford & Holden go but if an industry can't sell new cars at competitive prices and in large numbers, they have to be treated like any other business. Otherwise; give my business handouts as well!

I'm just glad that I have helped both Ford & Holden, by buying new cars.

Hello johnydep,

The British car industry didn't disappear, the major concerns were bought by multinationals and they have also had Honda and Nissan plants as well.
Australian Unions are not as destructive as the British car industry unions were nonetheless there will always be those that blame just unions for the outcomes we have now.

I do agree with your sentiments as a whole and am also disappointed with the end as it is panning out, not just for Falcon/Commodore but for manufacturing as a whole.

cheers
Bill.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

Even if we can Bill, the reality is not everyone is suited for those type of jobs. Some people are just more productive and better suited to working with their hands.

Its a discussion that is basically ignored in the political/economic debate, but as a TAFE teacher I can tell you we are leaving whole generations of kids with no future beyond working at KFC as the jobs they would be very good at are being off shored. The social cost to our society of this is enormous.

Dan

I hear you Dan,
I recently spent 3 years at TAFE studying Engineering and saw this first hand and witnessed the gutting of some TAFE institutions.
cheers
Bill.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Nice idea,

Do you think we will export any products to Asia ?

Britain is close to Europe and to North America.

In the end we are slaves to the tyrany of distance.

Ford ultimately confirmed it made no business sense to export from Australia.

Do the following manufacturers export to Asia - VW, BMW, Mercedes, Renault, Land Rover...

The point I was making is that if our industry concentrated on an export market, and succeeded, they're business would be secured with government funding when required. However, the industry leaders got lazy, or stupid, and did not bother. The people handing out tax dollars needed to chose viable investments, ones that ensured long term benefits. The car industry has had 30 years to build an export market, instead they built a excuse & whinge market - we're too small, we're too far, competition is too hard, we don't get enough subsidies.

How did the Germans and Japanese do it after the destruction of WWII? How did the Koreans do it during the 80's & 90's? They all started the same way we did, but they worked and planned better. Distance is an excuse.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Do the following manufacturers export to Asia - VW, BMW, Mercedes, Renault, Land Rover...

The point I was making is that if our industry concentrated on an export market, and succeeded, they're business would be secured with government funding when required. However, the industry leaders got lazy, or stupid, and did not bother. The people handing out tax dollars needed to chose viable investments, ones that ensured long term benefits. The car industry has had 30 years to build an export market, instead they built a excuse & whinge market - we're too small, we're too far, competition is too hard, we don't get enough subsidies.

How did the Germans and Japanese do it after the destruction of WWII? How did the Koreans do it during the 80's & 90's? They all started the same way we did, but they worked and planned better. Distance is an excuse.

Nice idea AGAIN.

VW, Mercedes, BMW, are German Company's.

Several of them now have plants in China, and they also export into the European Union and around the world (and some also have plants in the US).

Land Rover is a premium brand VERY heavily subsidised by the UK government and owned by an Indian conglomerate.

Some of those you quote have sufficient home grown volume ( of world wide product ) to be able to also have developed export programs to other parts of the world.

How do you propose that a foreign owned company that has old plants in a high cost environment like Australia exports into Asia, Europe and North America ( with high logistical costs ) in high volume whilst they compete with low cost producers that make the same product ( that is not indigenous ) ?

Well ?

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Say politics 3 times in front of the mirror and Big Damo appears.

Yes, how dare we all have paid annual leave, paid public holidays, paid sick leave, paid long service leave, decent minimum wage, superannuation, health and safety legislation and unfair dismissal laws!

Universal health care is also a pain in the ***, how dare GPs be free!

So when you handing your entitlements back in?

Oh, and its LABOR, not Labour.

I don't get paid annual leave, don't get paid public holidays, don't get paid sick leave and don't get paid long service leave. And I don't have a minimum wage or superannuation. No entitlements to hand back in. I refuse to be part of the workforce and am self-employed. And the reason I have to work 10x as hard as the general Average Joe is because its nearly impossible to get good workers who actually want to work. Its easier for them to call it quits and get paid to twiddle their thumbs, read newspapers and drink coffee at some regular job and get to go home at 4.45pm for the average salary, and the boss man can't say or do anything due to unfair dismissal laws... Seems the people who want to work are the ones who accept cash in hand, stay out of the system and live by 'if you don't work, you don't eat' motto.

[MethodX]

To be honest we were fortunate to have unique Aussie cars.
Ford could have simply imported the Torino or Maverick here.
GM the Malibu or Chevelle.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Bill M

Hello johnydep,

The British car industry didn't disappear, the major concerns were bought by multinationals and they have also had Honda and Nissan plants as well.
Australian Unions are not as destructive as the British car industry unions were nonetheless there will always be those that blame just unions for the outcomes we have now.

I do agree with your sentiments as a whole and am also disappointed with the end as it is panning out, not just for Falcon/Commodore but for manufacturing as a whole.

cheers
Bill.

The main problem is that the UK union system is based on or off communistic foundations, brain dead backward morons who support just idiots.
The German and Danish unions are far removed from them fools as they have to have a brain in their head to get the job to become a union man, not like hear you just need a great big fat gut and at least related to the communist party mob some where to get in the door.

[SpoolMan]

Politics and insults = kill thread.

closed...