Were Australian Fords Rubbish?

[Crazy Dazz]

It's something we take almost as read, that the cars we built were inferior in build quality, finish, and QA/QC. It's certainly stated as axiomatic every time we ask why the Falcon and Territory couldn't be more widely exported.
The anecdotal evidence is there to support it; bits falling off, notorious problems, suicidal ball-joints, rust spots, etc, etc.
Toyota's are of course much better built, and that's not to mention European cars.
There's no point even arguing, because if dare to suggest otherwise, this thread will be inundated with the tales of Toyota reliability, and the Falcon's ubiquitous crappiness.

And lets not even get started on how uneconomical they are.

I could offer up my own anecdotal evidence of owning a variety of cars over 30+ years, but obviously I'm Crazy and in the minority.

Thing is, I like to look at things from an economic perspective, as I find the market to be a fairly impartial judge.

I can't speak to other states, but in WA many years back the restrictions on taxi's were eased to allow a much wider variety of mid to large sized cars.
So obviously the entire taxi fleet converted to Mercedes and Volvos.

No, wait, that's right they didn't.
There was a short-lived flurry of Nissans, Camrys and Magnas, and then the vast majority reverted back to Falcons and Commodes.

So here you have an industry where unreliability is lost income, where every cent spent on maintaining their vehicle to the required standard comes straight off the bottom line, and fuel consumption is a MAJOR expense.

Obviously it is a somewhat particular market, the cars must be of a certain size (wheelbase) and naturally must be capable of carry at least 4 passengers, however there are PLENTY of cars that fit the bill: Hyundai, Honda, Nissan, Toyota, VW, Kia, Mazda, Subaru, Holden, Peugeot, Citroen, and Opel ALL make cars that satisfy the criteria. Many of them cheaper than a Falcon, most with economical 4 cylinders, and many of them Diesel.

The simple fact is that Falcons (and commodes) fitted with LPG, are more economical to operate over an extended lifespan and many hundreds of thousands of kilometres. Ultimately that comes down to reliability and cost of repairs.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that everyone should rush out and buy Falcons. Most people don't need to carry 4 adult passengers, and few will do 100,000kms per year. Nor am I suggesting that the taxi industry itself creates a great demand. The WA Industry has about 2,000, and the average lifespan is probably 5+ years.

Just making the point that maybe these cars are not the rubbish people claim.

[CoupeKing]

Not Rubbish. We need to make a good small car. More and more people today are going for the smaller cars......... Saves $$$$ to help pay for their kids iPad, iPhone, Laptop, PC, Internet, Cable.

You dont know some bloke called Hulk do ya?

[Trump]

If one looks at this question from a purely mechanical perspective, then Falcon is not rubbish. The taxis mentioned are testament to that; many of the cabs on the road are still on their original engine with a million plus kilometres on them.

If one looks at it from a comparative perspective (against the Japanese and European brands), then yes, Falcons of days gone by were rubbish; shoddy assembly, poor refinement and small parts failures (XD-E-F door handle breakages) did contribute. Not only that, the miniscule development budgets and ongoing penny pinching during the course of manufacture contributed heavily to the rubbish perception.

[Serial_Fool]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

If one looks at this question from a purely mechanical perspective, then Falcon is not rubbish. The taxis mentioned are testament to that; many of the cabs on the road are still on their original engine with a million plus kilometres on them.

If one looks at it from a comparative perspective (against the Japanese and European brands), then yes, Falcons of days gone by were rubbish; shoddy assembly, poor refinement and small parts failures (XD-E-F door handle breakages) did contribute. Not only that, the miniscule development budgets and ongoing penny pinching during the course of manufacture contributed heavily to the rubbish perception.

That baggage as unreliable really hurt the brand, as well as little to no performance options in the 80s, and underwhelming (for the most part) performance options in the 90s.

[Franco Cozzo]

The car isn't rubbish at all its just that the fit and finish with the hard plastics and the lack of gadgets lets them down.

Ford also has a big perception problems because of people who got burnt badly in the 80s and 90s, who will not consider them again today when it comes time to purchase a new car.

[Windsor220]

Too many niggling problems. Euro cars aren't much better either.

[Jastel]

As a taxi operator of only Falcons for 25 + years I can say that there are many reasons people run Falcons.

Traditional large family car in Aust.
Was affordable to run on LPG
Cheap to purchase ex rental and govt cars.
Plenty of spares at wreckers.
Can get parts from Ford within a week usually. Not 3 months like imported.
Easy and uncomplicated to fix

Many of these reasons have changed in the last 10 years or so with the price increases of petrol/LPG, better reliability of "small imported" cars, the advent of Hybrid systems and of course finally the worldwide death of large family sedan cars.

While the quality doesn't match current imported cars the ease of repair, price and availability of spares still makes them a viable proposition for a few more years yet. Even in non metro areas where LPG is not cheap.

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by Jastel

As a taxi operator of only Falcons for 25 + years I can say that there are many reasons people run Falcons.

Traditional large family car in Aust.
Was affordable to run on LPG
Cheap to purchase ex rental and govt cars.
Plenty of spares at wreckers.
Can get parts from Ford within a week usually. Not 3 months like imported.
Easy and uncomplicated to fix

Many of these reasons have changed in the last 10 years or so with the price increases of petrol/LPG, better reliability of "small imported" cars, the advent of Hybrid systems and of course finally the worldwide death of large family sedan cars.

While the quality doesn't match current imported cars the ease of repair, price and availability of spares still makes them a viable proposition for a few more years yet. Even in non metro areas where LPG is not cheap.

Questions -
So you still use Falcons for your taxi fleet?
What do you mean "Was affordable to run on LPG" Is it no longer affordable?
What will you use after Falcons are no longer available?

[Jastel]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

Questions -
So you still use Falcons for your taxi fleet?
What do you mean "Was affordable to run on LPG" Is it no longer affordable?
What will you use after Falcons are no longer available?

yes
it is far less affordable than it used to be...especially in rural areas, hence the shift to hybrids
???? probably Camry hybrid...tell ya in 2022

[tezxr8man]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

Too many niggling problems. Euro cars aren't much better either.

All cars have their niggling problems. and most of the plastic issues are across the board because our climate is harsher than most.

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by tezxr8man

All cars have their niggling problems. and most of the plastic issues are across the board because our climate is harsher than most.

Sure. The thing is with most Jap vehicles they may have one or two common faults with each model. With Commodores and Falcons they have issues that run into double digits.

From what I've seen with FG its quite good. Not sure about the VF.

[Jastel]

The FG is a big improvement, except for the diff rubbers and the auto coolers Ford have got it pretty much right. Pity it took so long.

[Franco Cozzo]

Some of the things I think are unacceptable with penny pinching and cost cutting is the high pressure power steering hose on EA - AU, that problem persisted for more than 10 years and has resulted in the early death of MANY alternators.

If they didn't want to fix the issue why couldn't they have put the alternator on top of the power steering pump?

[smoo]

You could fill a whole page on this thread of consistent big dollar mechanical and electrical failures from Euro and Jap brands in the last 20 years. VW DSG lemons, Honda and Nissan CVT, Jap CRD time bombs, Mitsubishi GDi, BMWs plastics cooling system failures, Mercedes wiring looms, head gaskets, timing chains, anything French, Italian or Land Rover. Stuff that will make the owner out of warranty mortgage the house to foot the repair bill.

All these apparent problems that the Commodore/Falcon suffer are a walk in the park compared to what some owners of the above brands have to deal with.

[ute83]

Originally Posted by smoo

You could fill a whole page on this thread of consistent big dollar mechanical and electrical failures from Euro and Jap brands in the last 20 years. VW DSG lemons, Honda and Nissan CVT, Jap CRD time bombs, Mitsubishi GDi, BMWs plastics cooling system failures, Mercedes wiring looms, head gaskets, timing chains, anything French, Italian or Land Rover. Stuff that will make the owner out of warranty mortgage the house to foot the repair bill.

All these apparent problems that the Commodore/Falcon suffer are a walk in the park compared to what some owners of the above brands have to deal with.

Very true, but we all wanted the aussie's to shine and they didn't. Imagine if they did. A lost opportunity I think. The head gasket issues of the E series did it for a lot of ordinary folks.

[shyun]

All cars have problems, if you think only falcons have these problems you haven't seen a lot of cars, some a lot worse than what falcons have had. Most of the problems with falcons are due to cost cutting and usually aren't particularly major. I think people might think because the interior is put together a bit average the mechanicals are as well.

If you want to see a real problem look up BMW E46 subframe failures...basically the whole rear floor of the car cracks and breaks

[mik]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Some of the things I think are unacceptable with penny pinching and cost cutting is the high pressure power steering hose on EA - AU, that problem persisted for more than 10 years and has resulted in the early death of MANY alternators.

If they didn't want to fix the issue why couldn't they have put the alternator on top of the power steering pump?

these are not just problems of falcons Damo, you will find other car brands have similar issues, people also mention head gasget problems on earlier model falcons but even the almighty toyota had models that blew head gasgets and also leak oil onto the alternator if a seal/gasget/hose fails.

the original poster has only put Australian fords on the spot, if I recall there where some American cars and trucks, even Japanese and german that made the news world wide for all the wrong reasons, personally I think you have to judge every brand/model on its merits, theres no doubt some models where better than others, but again the strengths and weakness thing.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by mik

these are not just problems of falcons Damo, you will find other car brands have similar issues, people also mention head gasget problems on earlier model falcons but even the almighty toyota had models that blew head gasgets and also leak oil onto the alternator if a seal/gasget/hose fails.

the original poster has only put Australian fords on the spot, if I recall there where some American cars and trucks, even Japanese and german that made the news world wide for all the wrong reasons, personally I think you have to judge every brand/model on its merits, theres no doubt some models where better than others, but again the strengths and weakness thing.

Of course its not but my EL has crapped three alternators in 235,000km, the previous owner didn't replace the power steering hose, so he just kept topping up the power steering fluid and toasted the alternator, I changed the high pressure power steering hose and chucked a new alternator on there.

Then the power steering pump let go and dumped a lot of oil from the front under the pulley into the alternator again killing my new alternator...

Replaced pump, replaced alternator again, third time lucky?

Its well known about the power steering issue on Falcons, if you have an alternator done at an auto electrical shop they won't warrant the work unless you also change that hose regardless of its condition.

Old man's Mazda 323, 390,000km, original starter, alternator and clutch.

Also stuff like Window regs are craptacular on E series Falcon, who has one of these on the forum with all 4 power windows working properly? My own EL the passenger window will barely pull itself up, and another EL I worked on the drivers side had the same problem.

Mines never had a head gasket problem because before I registered it I replaced the gasket with an AU MLS one but it did the heater core on me when I was driving home from work.

Its just all these little niggly issues, nothing overly serious. But its still leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

I'm just lucky mine is a project car and not a daily so when it decides to play not nice I can let it sit there and think about what its done for 6 months before I fix it lol.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Of course its not but my EL has crapped three alternators in 235,000km, the previous owner didn't replace the power steering hose, so he just kept topping up the power steering fluid and toasted the alternator, I changed the high pressure power steering hose and chucked a new alternator on there.

Then the power steering pump let go and dumped a lot of oil from the front under the pulley into the alternator again killing my new alternator...

Replaced pump, replaced alternator again, third time lucky?

Its well known about the power steering issue on Falcons, if you have an alternator done at an auto electrical shop they won't warrant the work unless you also change that hose regardless of its condition.

Old man's Mazda 323, 390,000km, original starter, alternator and clutch.

Also stuff like Window regs are craptacular on E series Falcon, who has one of these on the forum with all 4 power windows working properly? My own EL the passenger window will barely pull itself up, and another EL I worked on the drivers side had the same problem.

Mines never had a head gasket problem because before I registered it I replaced the gasket with an AU MLS one but it did the heater core on me when I was driving home from work.

Its just all these little niggly issues, nothing overly serious. But its still leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

I'm just lucky mine is a project car and not a daily so when it decides to play not nice I can let it sit there and think about what its done for 6 months before I fix it lol.

A pointless post. You're saying a clapped out neglected 20 year old Falcon and problems resulting from age/mileage is a reflection on the quality of Falcons past and present? Or all the other 20 year old cars out there are getting around with no dramas?
Go and buy an E or S Class from the same era and let us know how you get on.

[mechanic]

XA-XB models drove us mad with water and dust leaks when I worked for Ford in the '70s. But then inlet valve problems drove us mad when working for Holden in the late '70s.
Personally I don't believe Australian Fords were rubbish, maybe they could have done more in the way of quality control but then so could most other manufacturers.

[Jacko*]

Were Australian Fords Rubbish? I would have to say no. I have owned many Falcons over the years from XK to BA as well as other local & some foreign cars. Compared to the overseas made cars the Falcons were larger more comfortable & gave a smoother ride. Rust has always been an issue with the Falcons even the BA I have now had rust under the battery. Saying that most of the Falcons I had lived outside exposed to the elements. Quality of plastics used inside has improved a lot over the years & the ergonomics always seemed better in the Falcon compared to Japanese & Korean cars. I bought Falcons because they were good value for money, a solid powerful car that could tow, carry 4 passengers & their luggage. Any issues I had I was able to fix myself with affordable parts. I wonder now what will be the substitute for the Falcon once it's gone? Or is there enough demand for for such a car? Surely whatever imports find there way here won't have the same level of support as the Falcon which has been designed & improved here in Australia for more than 50 years.
I think we will find ourselves in a situation in the future where we didn't realize how good we had it with cheap affordable local cars. But it's all a little late really, decisions have already been made & we will get whatever some other country wants to send us.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by smoo

A pointless post. You're saying a clapped out neglected 20 year old Falcon and problems resulting from age/mileage is a reflection on the quality of Falcons past and present? Or all the other 20 year old cars out there are getting around with no dramas?
Go and buy an E or S Class from the same era and let us know how you get on.

You mean like this one I helped work on from 1982?



All the electrics still worked, except for the factory cruise control, it was running rough and needed new plugs, leads, rotor cap and button.

From what I could see is it had a new alternator at one stage, it still had all its original wiring and all the electrics such as the power windows, climate control etc working.

20 year old Falcon or not its still got all its services documented in the book up to 170,000km, never missed one up until that point.

Also age and milage, whats 235,000km got on 390,000km that one of our other cars has?

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Of course its not but my EL has crapped three alternators in 235,000km, the previous owner didn't replace the power steering hose, so he just kept topping up the power steering fluid and toasted the alternator, I changed the high pressure power steering hose and chucked a new alternator on there.

Then the power steering pump let go and dumped a lot of oil from the front under the pulley into the alternator again killing my new alternator...

Replaced pump, replaced alternator again, third time lucky?

Its well known about the power steering issue on Falcons, if you have an alternator done at an auto electrical shop they won't warrant the work unless you also change that hose regardless of its condition.

Old man's Mazda 323, 390,000km, original starter, alternator and clutch.

Also stuff like Window regs are craptacular on E series Falcon, who has one of these on the forum with all 4 power windows working properly? My own EL the passenger window will barely pull itself up, and another EL I worked on the drivers side had the same problem.

Mines never had a head gasket problem because before I registered it I replaced the gasket with an AU MLS one but it did the heater core on me when I was driving home from work.

Its just all these little niggly issues, nothing overly serious. But its still leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

I'm just lucky mine is a project car and not a daily so when it decides to play not nice I can let it sit there and think about what its done for 6 months before I fix it lol.

you mustve bought a dud dude

i only lift the bonnet on XE every month or so to check vitals

315k of old bomb goodness

[Smoke Pursuit]

All I can say is certain things let them down, like rust and seat frames.

The seat frames since BA have been too light and cheap, ask any cab operator if they have had to strengthen the seat and they will tell you they have.

They improved paint finish when they put new robots in at the start of FG, but yeah rust is a big worry with these cars.

[Gobes32]

I know many people that will never buy another Falcon because of head gasket failure. I will always drive a Falcon because I can repair it myself, I have a fair idea of how it all works and where it's likely to fail and it serves me well.

[Kieron]

Jastel is of course, on the money. Looming quickly in the taxi industry though is the Toyota hybrids.

Cabbies that I have spoken to that use them said they are cheaper to operate and have less problems than our good ole Falc's. One said the main issue was broken exterior mirrors being a few hundred bucks vs buying a Falcons mirror from a wreckers for a few quid.

Maybe Jastel could eloborate further on the Toyota hybrids as taxis?

[LoudPipes]

‘Were Australian Fords Rubbish?’
That’s an odd question to ask on an Australian Ford Forum.
Simple answer, NO.

Ford Australia have always made a reasonable product when you look at it from many factors including price, durability, performance, repair costs, range of variants, market size and build quality.

A change in market forces where SUV’s for families and smaller compacts for couples offering good or better alternatives to large 4 door sedans has been the real death rattle for large cars like Falcon.
Territory needed to move with the times, a lack of finance for development has left it floundering.

[Wretched]

I think a generalised "rubbish" comment is going a little extreme.
The Falcon and Territory are good cars, not great but not bad. They're built to a budget and do show it.
Mine and my families experiences with Falcons over the years have been mixed but I and a few friends hired a Territory and drove MELB -> PERTH -MELB and it performed faultlessly.

The issue with the Falcon/Territory is that Ford AU let them slip in quality and in terms of technology. Whilst other car makers (including Ford international) advanced their cars with each iteration including quality, the local two had stagnated. I think people were getting sick of it and have shopped elsewhere and not looked back.

[NX74205]

Originally Posted by Wretched

I think a generalised "rubbish" comment is going a little extreme.
The Falcon and Territory are good cars, not great but not bad. They're built to a budget and do show it.

This.

No, Aussie Fords are not rubbish. But they're not the best thing since sliced bread either.

Dad's BA, which was supposedly not one of the more "reliable" Falcons, only ever needed a power steering pump replaced in 11.5 years and 231,000kms of service (aside from the usual wear and tear items). My BF has needed a bit more work than that, unfortunately. Both cars have some surface rust (therein lies the "built to a budget" evidence).

They do go on and on and on if they're looked after properly. But they aren't the first word in refinement or build quality. Those silver door trims in my BF feels cheap, work themselves loose and rattles around in the cabin which annoys the crap out of me, as does the diff bush "clunk" whenever I try to accelerate with more than moderate throttle input.

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

S116 and S126 were the most reliable Mercs ever made.

I dare anyone to own an S140 and not go insane however.
Dont mind the biodegradable plastic insulation on the wiring...

You mean the W116 and W126 Yeah, they were some of the best cars of the time. I'd definitely consider getting them as a project car some time in the future.

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Not so. Spot the enemy for who they really are: Imperial Japan's soulless, heartless soldiers and machinery might have lost WW2, but they finally got their revenge on the world through their soulless, boredom-inducing, mass produced 'vehicles'.

In case you haven't noticed, the war's over. Has been over for almost 70 years. The Japanese are not our enemy. They have invested into the Australian motoring industry for a number of years - Mitsubishi used to build cars here, and Toyota still do. "Soulless"? Oh yeah, the Camry and Aurion are pretty soulless ...

[Raptor]

No the cars are not rubbish, maybe some of the decisions made by Ford have been though.

Also the taxi thing hurt the Falcon's image and is why Holden stopped chasing that market and went after the Highway Patrol fleet instead.

Owning a taxi is hardly aspirational.

A Police 'Interceptor' though has much more appeal - cue Mad Max reel.