And they wonder why some don't trust them

[balthazarr]

'Detectives from an elite crime squad routinely flouted the law and believed "that bashing a crook was a community service", according to an Office of Police Integrity report tabled in Parliament today. ...'

Read more here: http://www.theage.com.au/national/cu...1030-5brf.html

So what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

From the same report: 'Three members of the squad, Robert Dabb, Mark Butterfield and Matthew Franc, were called to OPI hearings and denied involvement. They later resigned and earlier this year pleaded guilty to assaulting the suspect and attempting to mislead the OPI. They were sentenced to Intensive Corrections Orders that involves community service work. The OPI said the case exposed "the alarming willingness of some police to lie on oath or turn a blind eye to protect themselves or their colleagues".'

So they bashed someone, lied, misused their position of authority, and all they have to do is community service?

[FGII-XR6]

what you have to remember is that a custodial sentence for a cop can be a death sentence in some cases. they try to avoid custodial sentencing for all but the most serious offences for police for this reason
There is the dramas of a death in custody and the high cost of on going protective custody to also be taken into account
this is not an ideal situation but by the same token it is understandable considering the " victims" were most likely well known crime figures who if they were not guilty of what they were being accused of were probably guilty of other ( maybe worse ) offences that they frequently get away with. Cops get frustrated seeing these scum avoiding punishment for crimes they know they have commited but for technical reasons avoid prosecution
I am not saying what these guys did is right what I am saying is, this was not for personal gain but out of a missguided sense of community service. If they were shaking the crims down for money or drugs the sentencing would be harsher than in a situation where frustration lead to trying to take short cuts to get scum off the streets

[balthazarr]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

what you have to remember is that a custodial sentence for a cop can be a death sentence in some cases. they try to avoid custodial sentencing for all but the most serious offences for police for this reason
There is the dramas of a death in custody and the high cost of on going protective custody to also be taken into account
this is not an ideal situation but by the same token it is understandable considering the " victims" were most likely well known crime figures who if they were not guilty of what they were being accused of were probably guilty of other ( maybe worse ) offences that they frequently get away with. Cops get frustrated seeing these scum avoiding punishment for crimes they know they have commited but for technical reasons avoid prosecution
I am not saying what these guys did is right what I am saying is, this was not for personal gain but out of a missguided sense of community service. If they were shaking the crims down for money or drugs the sentencing would be harsher than in a situation where frustration lead to trying to take short cuts to get scum off the streets

The thing is that this behaviour is likely to have the opposite effect. A judge will look at the police misconduct, and may decide that any confession/admission by the accused was suspect, and not admit that confession/admission - with the consequence that any additional evidence found stemming from the confession/admission is also inadmissible.

Bashing someone is not a short cut. Crim or not. If you read the OIC report (linked in The Age article), one suspect was beaten severely enough for him to bleed, and was repeatedly denied a phone call/access to a lawyer, etc.

Sure, this suspect may have been a known crime figure, but what if it's a case of mistaken identity? How would you feel if it was you that was accused of something, bashed by police and refused access to a lawyer/phone call?

[RG]

Originally Posted by balthazarr

The thing is that this behaviour is likely to have the opposite effect. A judge will look at the police misconduct, and may decide that any confession/admission by the accused was suspect, and not admit that confession/admission - with the consequence that any additional evidence found stemming from the confession/admission is also inadmissible.

Bashing someone is not a short cut. Crim or not. If you read the OIC report (linked in The Age article), one suspect was beaten severely enough for him to bleed, and was repeatedly denied a phone call/access to a lawyer, etc.

Sure, this suspect may have been a known crime figure, but what if it's a case of mistaken identity? How would you feel if it was you that was accused of something, bashed by police and refused access to a lawyer/phone call?

I'm very tempted to kill this thread now, any crap towards the Police and away it goes.

[balthazarr]

Originally Posted by Russell

I'm very tempted to kill this thread now, any crap towards the Police and away it goes.

I don't think I'm giving crap towards the Police... I have great respect for the cops. I think their job is very often thankless, and they get paid peanuts compared to the risks they take on and the crap they deal with on a daily basis.

However, it is unfortunate that a few bad apples tarnishes the reputation of the entire force. The OPI (don't know where I got OIC from) report does state that significant improvements have been made since this particular squad was disbanded.

[RG]

Originally Posted by balthazarr

I don't think I'm giving crap towards the Police... I have great respect for the cops. I think their job is very often thankless, and they get paid peanuts compared to the risks they take on and the crap they deal with on a daily basis.

However, it is unfortunate that a few bad apples tarnishes the reputation of the entire force. The OPI (don't know where I got OIC from) report does state that significant improvements have been made since this particular squad was disbanded.

I'm not going to get into an argument about this, but remember don't believe everything you read and just because a department is set up to maintain integrity does not mean they have any integrity themselves.

[klone]

I'm with the cops.

If the suspect is known to the police, then they are just doing us a favour by teaching the crims a lesson.

The justice system allows too many crims to re offend and I'm fed up with the fact that innocent law abiding citizens have to continually pay the price for the gutless and selfish actions of the criminally minded.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Russell

I'm very tempted to kill this thread now, any crap towards the Police and away it goes.

Do it.!

[Hillbilly F Truck]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Do it.!

Yep..it's gone south.

[Jason[98.EL]]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Do it.!

yes i agree

this should have been killed with the first warning

i have family in the police force in both local (vic ) and federal police

one of them is a member here and gets so p1ssed when he sees a thread like this

think this should be canned now

[FGII-XR6]

I never said they did the right thing just adding some perspective . the police have a difficult job and often their hands are tied by legal loopholes and civil libertarians. the temptation to take short cuts and yes even get physical would become stronger the longer you are subject to the system . yes bashing crims is wrong but I know I wouldn't want to put up with some of the scum these guys have to.
too often we get people police bashing in the media or forums like this but we need them there or it would be chaos. are they prefect ? no. are they always right ? no. they are human too and doing a difficult job in difficult cicumstances that most of us would be unable to tollerate. we need to support the average cop and understand the missguided but otherwise honest cops who get sick of the way their hands are tied
on the other hand corrupt cops getting kickbacks to turn a bling eye deserve no respect at all they undermine the entire police service and destroy confidence . the cops in question here were no corrupt they were trying to do the right thing the wrong way

Originally Posted by balthazarr

The thing is that this behaviour is likely to have the opposite effect. A judge will look at the police misconduct, and may decide that any confession/admission by the accused was suspect, and not admit that confession/admission - with the consequence that any additional evidence found stemming from the confession/admission is also inadmissible.

Bashing someone is not a short cut. Crim or not. If you read the OIC report (linked in The Age article), one suspect was beaten severely enough for him to bleed, and was repeatedly denied a phone call/access to a lawyer, etc.

Sure, this suspect may have been a known crime figure, but what if it's a case of mistaken identity? How would you feel if it was you that was accused of something, bashed by police and refused access to a lawyer/phone call?

[balthazarr]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

I never said they did the right thing just adding some perspective . the police have a difficult job and often their hands are tied by legal loopholes and civil libertarians. the temptation to take short cuts and yes even get physical would become stronger the longer you are subject to the system .

Agree 100%.

yes bashing crims is wrong but I know I wouldn't want to put up with some of the scum these guys have to.

I don't know that bashing crims is wrong. Or whether it should be wrong. I think some crims - especially repeat offenders - think they can get away with almost anything... maybe bashing some sense into them is a good thing. Maybe a few lashings like in Singapore?

But, a suspect is not a criminal. That's really my only point. Until a suspect has been proven guilty in a court, that's all they are - a suspect.

too often we get people police bashing in the media or forums like this but we need them there or it would be chaos. are they prefect ? no. are they always right ? no. they are human too and doing a difficult job in difficult cicumstances that most of us would be unable to tollerate. we need to support the average cop and understand the missguided but otherwise honest cops who get sick of the way their hands are tied
on the other hand corrupt cops getting kickbacks to turn a bling eye deserve no respect at all they undermine the entire police service and destroy confidence . the cops in question here were no corrupt they were trying to do the right thing the wrong way

I understand your point. But how do we differentiate the honest cop trying to do the right thing from the dodgy cop that, say, is trying to cover up something by bashing a confession out of someone?

[Hillbilly F Truck]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

what you have to remember is that a custodial sentence for a cop can be a death sentence in some cases. they try to avoid custodial sentencing for all but the most serious offences for police for this reason
There is the dramas of a death in custody and the high cost of on going protective custody to also be taken into account
this is not an ideal situation but by the same token it is understandable considering the " victims" were most likely well known crime figures who if they were not guilty of what they were being accused of were probably guilty of other ( maybe worse ) offences that they frequently get away with. Cops get frustrated seeing these scum avoiding punishment for crimes they know they have commited but for technical reasons avoid prosecution
I am not saying what these guys did is right what I am saying is, this was not for personal gain but out of a missguided sense of community service. If they were shaking the crims down for money or drugs the sentencing would be harsher than in a situation where frustration lead to trying to take short cuts to get scum off the streets

Agreed. Police need to be police not toothless tigers. Only one way to get respect. Take it back from the thugs in society. How many times are cops assaulted and have their lives threatened. Bound by same laws that protect the scum. See thread on Mexican drug war.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by balthazarr

'Detectives from an elite crime squad routinely flouted the law and believed "that bashing a crook was a community service",.....

Yep, some clowns just need a slap. Thanks guys!

[flappist]

Yep. police need to be Police, they should be able to do ANYTHING to get a conviction.

Spoken like true naive children.

Wait until you are picked up or questioned over something that has nothing to do with you but you happen to look a bit like the criminal involved or used to live near the criminal involved, or have a similar car to the criminal involved and some snotty youth in a blue suit is SURE that you did 200km/h, robbed a motel room, or committed a sexial assault even though you were in another state, had been released from hospital 3 days before with a broken leg or was 8 years old at the time of the offence and actually lived at 12 not 21 of the address of the offence.

Or how about if a convicted armed robber who hates you is caught selling handguns to crims and trys to get some leniency by informing the police that YOU were his supplier hoping that their might be a paperwork anomily that could get you charged and then after 4 hours of interrigation you are released with not even a sorry mate, our oops.

Convicted criminals only maybe?

How many here have what many police concider is "criminal history" i.e. speeding, possession of a fast car, a shooters licence, possession of a modified car, caught shoplifting when at school, caught smoking dope when at Uni etc etc etc.

Once a crim always a crim........

There is a reason why there is an OPI (or ESU up here).

[Rodp]

Was only 20 odd years ago when plod would take you down the cells and take to you with a phone book then let you go in the morning - happened to a few of my mates in the 80's. Their inability to use force these days is evident in the lack of respect many of your garden variety scumbags give police when they're just walking their beat.

If they were able to give someone a well deserved clip over the ear again, I'd be all for it.

[FGII-XR6]

or maybe a holiday for anti police comments would help

[Jason[98.EL]]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

or maybe a holiday for anti police comments would help

yeh that to

if they needed help and the police didnt turn up then they would be the first to cry foul

[Jason[98.EL]]

sorry if i have upset people with my comments

i have been on the other side as well so if my comments have upset people i am sorry

Grimus

[Justin@]

The opi is a joke.... What do they expect the police to do with these VIOLENT crims....sit down over a cuppa tea and ask them to stop!!!!!
The ends justified the means.

[balthazarr]

Originally Posted by ZC-383

The opi is a joke....

That may very well be. I have no knowledge of the OPI - today is the first I'd heard of them - so I can't really comment either way.

What do they expect the police to do with these VIOLENT crims....sit down over a cuppa tea and ask them to stop!!!!!

Police are allowed to use reasonable force to apprehend criminals, stop a crime in progress, forcibly take bodily samples (intimate or otherwise), etc.

The ends justified the means.

I completely disagree. The ends - getting the suspect to confess/admit - can never justify the means - beating, starving, torturing, etc. - for any suspect.

If a confession is made under those circumstances, who's to say that the confession was made merely to stop the beating, and not because the person actually committed the crime? Then you have a double travesty - an innocent person (potentially) going to jail, and the real perpetrator walking the streets.

I don't really get why people think I'm bagging police, or making 'anti-police' comments, simply because I think the police should not be allowed to bash confessions out of suspects?

[Justin@]

Originally Posted by balthazarr

That may very well be. I have no knowledge of the OPI - today is the first I'd heard of them - so I can't really comment either way.



Police are allowed to use reasonable force to apprehend criminals, stop a crime in progress, forcibly take bodily samples (intimate or otherwise), etc.



I completely disagree. The ends - getting the suspect to confess/admit - can never justify the means - beating, starving, torturing, etc. - for any suspect.

If a confession is made under those circumstances, who's to say that the confession was made merely to stop the beating, and not because the person actually committed the crime? Then you have a double travesty - an innocent person (potentially) going to jail, and the real perpetrator walking the streets.

I don't really get why people think I'm bagging police, or making 'anti-police' comments, simply because I think the police should not be allowed to bash confessions out of suspects?

Oh sorry mate what is the name of the world you live in?
must be a great place where crims just fess up aye...
Look i am not saying that all police should do it or get away with it, what i am saying is that this squad delt with some really out there blokes and maybe that was the best way to deal with em...

The do-gooders and bleeding hearts are the big prob here NOT the cops that got the job done.

[balthazarr]

Originally Posted by ZC-383

Oh sorry mate what is the name of the world you live in?
must be a great place where crims just fess up aye...

You'd be surprised. I did various volunteer work with Legal Aid and criminal defence lawyers while studying... most criminal cases never get to trial, they're pleaded out.

Look i am not saying that all police should do it or get away with it, what i am saying is that this squad delt with some really out there blokes and maybe that was the best way to deal with em...

And maybe it is the best way to deal with them. But what happens when the police get it wrong, and the beat confessions out of people that didn't do the crime in question, and have no criminal history? How can you possibly trust a confession that has been beaten out of someone?

The do-gooders and bleeding hearts are the big prob here NOT the cops that got the job done.

The role of the police is not to determine innocence or guilt. It is to investigate and prevent crime, and bring suspects to court to answer charges laid against them.

The police should not be engaging in vigilante justice because of perceived flaws in the justice system.

Let me give you an example: Someone takes a baseball bat to your car. Your neighbour saw it and tells you who the vandal was. You and a group of mates head over there and bash him for smashing your car. Would you expect to be arrested and charged? What's the difference between that scenario, and police beating a suspect? What if your neighbour comes to you the next day and says that he got it wrong?

[Justin@]

Originally Posted by balthazarr

You'd be surprised. I did various volunteer work with Legal Aid and criminal defence lawyers while studying... most criminal cases never get to trial, they're pleaded out.



And maybe it is the best way to deal with them. But what happens when the police get it wrong, and the beat confessions out of people that didn't do the crime in question, and have no criminal history? How can you possibly trust a confession that has been beaten out of someone?



The role of the police is not to determine innocence or guilt. It is to investigate and prevent crime, and bring suspects to court to answer charges laid against them.

The police should not be engaging in vigilante justice because of perceived flaws in the justice system.

Let me give you an example: Someone takes a baseball bat to your car. Your neighbour saw it and tells you who the vandal was. You and a group of mates head over there and bash him for smashing your car. Would you expect to be arrested and charged? What's the difference between that scenario, and police beating a suspect? What if your neighbour comes to you the next day and says that he got it wrong?

Nar mate i spose you are right aye....lets just let the crims do what ever they like and tie the hands of the police.....wouldnt that be a great world to live in...
How would you and the bleading hearts of this world deal with these violent crims?

[eb_5litre]

Sometimes force is necessary I believe.... the Police Force has been turned into the Police Pretty Please.
I know some pretty shady characters and prefer to distance myself and family from them..... they know the Police are mostly powerless, especially against minors. Learning respect for authority really needs to start at home though and really some of these germs shouldnt be allowed to breed.

[ZEDAYE]

So what happens now to all the other cases these police officers have been involved in? Are they all reviewed to see if there is any other illegal behavior that may have led to a "confession" and ultimately a conviction?

[Daymoe]

I reckon the cops should be allowed to do this, but only to people who have criminal records. The police need to gain back some power and respect.

[Burnout]

Originally Posted by Daymoe

I reckon the cops should be allowed to do this, but only to people who have criminal records. The police need to gain back some power and respect.

The Police do need to retain the respect & support of the community in general, however the statute and implied (civil) rights of the individual need to be maintained in all instances.

[BIGJB]

Originally Posted by Burnedout

The Police do need to retain the respect & support of the community in general, however the statute and implied (civil) rights of the individual need to be maintained in all instances.

Couldn't have said it better myself mate.

[nugget378]

I cant believe some believe police should not be held accountable to the same law they enforce on others...

Get real,their job is to enforce the law,not be above it.

Its all good as long as it does'nt happen to me?